Revelations and Rereads (Battle Ground Spoilers)

[Arjan]

But I think Vadderung knows Marcone took the coin. The way he refers to celestial and infernal power.

[Basil]

Good point.  He knows, he just wasn't quite spreading it around. 

Another point, about Justine.  If she was infected prior to White Night (her untouchability by WCV making her an ideal servant for Lara), that would mean that Mr. Sunshine took Harry to spirit walk to Thomas and Justine's place while Justine was Nemesis at the end of Ghost Story.  Did Mr. Sunshine know she was infected?  Is Nemesis that good at hiding? 

[Snark Knight]

If it is true that Namshiel was part of the presumed Black Council assault on Artis Tor, I wonder how pleased Mab is with this development?

I'm still suspicious that Tessa was behind that and threw the blame on Namshiel as far as Mab is concerned, and Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.

[Mira]

Good point.  He knows, he just wasn't quite spreading it around. 

Another point, about Justine.  If she was infected prior to White Night (her untouchability by WCV making her an ideal servant for Lara), that would mean that Mr. Sunshine took Harry to spirit walk to Thomas and Justine's place while Justine was Nemesis at the end of Ghost Story.  Did Mr. Sunshine know she was infected?  Is Nemesis that good at hiding?

Oh, I think he knew.   Harry wanted to see his brother, and Uriel showed him.  Interesting it happened just at the moment that Justine brought her girlfriend home for sex to break the true love protection.  Uriel of course wouldn't say anything to Harry as part of his sorta noninterference thing going.  However I think it might turn out to be significant in the future, here is why.  Why did Justine wait until that late moment in her relationship with Thomas to suddenly set it up so they can have sex?  1] Nemeses thought Harry was dead and gone, the odds that it would be discovered before it was ready, just went down..2] Given what Thomas said about White Court Vamp low fertility rates, Nemeses knew it might take a year or more to get Justine pregnant.

[Bad Alias]

It would mean that True Love and Nemesis can coexist.

It would only mean that True Love Protection and Nemesis can coexist.

What really are the limits of Nemesis?  How many individuals can it infect at a time?  Surely, there has to be some limit there.  So far, we know that only Starborn like Harry cannot be hijacked.  But, this leaves open the possibility that Harry could give in.   

Our official list of Starborn is pretty small:  (1) Harry; (2) Elaine; (3) Listen_the_Turtleneck; and (4) ... Drakul (b. ~1310).

We, and Harry, only suspect Nemesis can't infect him. We don't know that Elaine is star born.

[Mira]

We, and Harry, only suspect Nemesis can't infect him. We don't know that Elaine is star born.

There is circumstantial evidence, that either she isn't a star born as hoped, or she took a different turn, and her path is way different.

Evidence for; If she was born about the same time as Harry, the stars would have been aligned for
her also.   
                    Justin pulled her out of the orphanage, or we think he did, we don't know her full story, for some reason presumably because he felt she could be.

Evidence against;  Justin was able to enthrall her.
                           She fled to the Summer Court after Justin died, and Aurora began to show symptoms of infection.
                             In Summer Knight though in the end she did help Harry, her actions were suspect of infection when you look back.

Shrug of shoulders;  In White Night she seemed very normal, very level headed wizard type lady..

Verdict?   Too little information to go by..

[TheCuriousFan]

There is circumstantial evidence, that either she isn't a star born as hoped, or she took a different turn, and her path is way different.

Evidence for; If she was born about the same time as Harry, the stars would have been aligned for
her also.   
                    Justin pulled her out of the orphanage, or we think he did, we don't know her full story, for some reason presumably because he felt she could be.

Evidence against;  Justin was able to enthrall her.
                           She fled to the Summer Court after Justin died, and Aurora began to show symptoms of infection.
                             In Summer Knight though in the end she did help Harry, her actions were suspect of infection when you look back.

Shrug of shoulders;  In White Night she seemed very normal, very level headed wizard type lady..

Verdict?   Too little information to go by..

I say she's not infected because if she was she'd have just delayed for 5 more seconds or let the thorns take him. She had way too many chances to let Aurora win to be also infected.

[The_Sibelis]

I'm still suspicious that Tessa was behind that and threw the blame on Namshiel as far as Mab is concerned, and Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.

what evidence is there that it was Namshiel? Like, does anyone ever come out and say it? The closest I remember is Harry mentioning him when Mabs talking about the Attack and she goes cold and cruel about the reply. But does she blame the fallen or the host? The host was already dead.. and from the way she talked to Anduriel I'd assume if she blames Namshiel then Marcone having the coin changes nothing but perhaps a newfound ire for Marcone as an ally of an enemy.. an enemy owed a dept.

[The_Sibelis]

I say she's not infected because if she was she'd have just delayed for 5 more seconds or let the thorns take him. She had way too many chances to let Aurora win to be also infected.

two things on this
1 her birthday is in summer. I'm not saying she's not starborn but this leaves big questions about why Eb said once every 666 and conjoined that with the starborn light only falling on earth for a free hours... We're being mislead somewhere here..
2 because of how Maeve talks about mortal madness, I assume Elaine being around constantly WAS the vector to Aurora... Cant remember who was speaking on watching her slowly change throughout the years in BG but I assume that was the effect of Elaine's presence... Harry changes stuff by interaction, and naming.. why not Elaine if she is Starborn? Idk if she was aware of what she was doing or not, but it's what I think happened. Elaine showed her the perspective of never ceasing violence and destruction the two courts balancing act caused from a human standpoint. 

[Mira]

I say she's not infected because if she was she'd have just delayed for 5 more seconds or let the thorns take him. She had way too many chances to let Aurora win to be also infected.

That is possible, but is it also possible that Elaine is or was a carrier?  She brought Nemesis to the Summer Court, in the process of infecting Aurora, was cured herself?  Or it is also possible that it wasn't the plan to take Harry out in that moment, because it would mess up the over all plan, thinking in the long term as Marcone put it. 

[Arjan]

That is possible, but is it also possible that Elaine is or was a carrier?  She brought Nemesis to the Summer Court, in the process of infecting Aurora, was cured herself?  Or it is also possible that it wasn't the plan to take Harry out in that moment, because it would mess up the over all plan, thinking in the long term as Marcone put it.

As soon as Harry was through it was either Harry or Aurora so that would mean they were prepared to just let the whole operation fail to keep Harry alive. I think that is too much of a stretch.

[edf]

Elaine could be complicit in a number of ways that doesn't require her to be infected:
- If mortals summon Outsiders, perhaps Elaine summoned Beside to infect Aurora in exchange for protection.   Elaine said she made a deal for Summer's protection, but she could have been obscuring what deal and with whom. 

- Perhaps Elaine is the referenced "Destroyer" Morgan was worried Harry was.  We still don't know what threat that poses.

- Perhaps Elaine went to Summer because of something Justin had already set in motion.  If her "entrallment" carried over, someone else still might be pulling the strings (Cowl?).

[Mira]

As soon as Harry was through it was either Harry or Aurora so that would mean they were prepared to just let the whole operation fail to keep Harry alive. I think that is too much of a stretch.

Elaine was,  but not so much Aurora, let's not forget the Stone Table was mixed in there along with the Unraveling.

Elaine could be complicit in a number of ways that doesn't require her to be infected:
- If mortals summon Outsiders, perhaps Elaine summoned Beside to infect Aurora in exchange for protection.   Elaine said she made a deal for Summer's protection, but she could have been obscuring what deal and with whom. 

- Perhaps Elaine is the referenced "Destroyer" Morgan was worried Harry was.  We still don't know what threat that poses.

- Perhaps Elaine went to Summer because of something Justin had already set in motion.  If her "entrallment" carried over, someone else still might be pulling the strings (Cowl?).

All those are possible.

[morriswalters]

what evidence is there that it was Namshiel? Like, does anyone ever come out and say it? The closest I remember is Harry mentioning him when Mabs talking about the Attack and she goes cold and cruel about the reply. But does she blame the fallen or the host? The host was already dead.. and from the way she talked to Anduriel I'd assume if she blames Namshiel then Marcone having the coin changes nothing but perhaps a newfound ire for Marcone as an ally of an enemy.. an enemy owed a dept.

Since we never knew who Thorned Namshiel's  host was you can't answer that.

[The_Sibelis]

Since we never knew who Thorned Namshiel's  host was you can't answer that.

he's the guy harry killed with the mage hand..