Author Topic: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]  (Read 57422 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #240 on: November 06, 2020, 05:08:22 AM »
There's also Ulshavaras's question that presumes he could. Jim implied using Bob for financial advise would be very useful.

Yes. They do. But not as quickly as they do when they endanger the landlord's life.

Um, I call the zombie invasion an endangerment of the landlord's life..  If she is the landlord, the actual landlord might be absentee..

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #241 on: November 07, 2020, 02:58:49 AM »
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Yes, and six years was way too long a time lapse between books, especially when Peace Talks takes place with in months of Skin Game, intangibles get lost. 

Indeed. But then well that's not part of a story, and we can expect of Jim to keep tabs on what happened when even when he needs to take bigger skip.

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The Sword broke because Murphy who claimed to know better than Harry about the Swords, who self proclaimed herself custodian, who was an absolute hypocrite when it came to the use of the Sword of Faith, that is why it got broken.  Remember what Michael says, it isn't about the Sword, it is about the hand that wields it.  That is what Nic read and played off of to get it broken.  Trying to save Harry's life is a nice excuse, except Harry's life really was never in danger.  Deep down after the fact in her hospital bed, Murphy had to have realized that as well.  Yet in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, except for a little physical discomfort, Murphy talks like and acts like nothing had happened to her mentally/emotionally.  And it had, in spades, Nic damaged a hell of a lot more than her body.  Yet we see nothing about that.

Oh, yes I agree. Another field that should be delved more deeply. Especially considering Murphy's Catholicism (even if it seems mostly a pretext to avoid unwanted advances from valkyries).

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That is an excellent point.  Murphy’s death takes Murphy’s psychological recovery off the table.  I also don’t understand the purpose of introducing Murphy’s dad as a speaking character... after he died... and then taking Murphy off the table.

And we have WOJ claiming Collin was murdered.

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cause with Murphy sticking around in limbo(a form of it anyway) she has time to go visit her dad in limbo and find out the truth of his death?

Murphy's spirit/soul cannot leave Valhalla for next few centuries.

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And yes, WWW, every time that the weight of the sword is mentioned I was intrigued. I have 0 experience with swords but it seems that fighting with essentially a handle in your hand, no weight for the blade, would be a difficult task. Yet, once you get used to it, it is be very convenient, as you don't need to pass a strength check to wield it, you don't get tired, and can be very fast. All very useful for the not so strong adventurer. But still, I wouldn't think that the skills needed to fight with such a weapon should take more than a month. As I said before, I am willing to cut JB some slack as the sword itself could be helping.

And we're too believe utter sword-noob Butters never even accidentally cut himself while making wild waving around with the Sword?
Come on. Yes I agree for someone very well trained with it - it could work - but not after so short times, swords as we see in Battle Ground help a bit with probability but fencing is in knights hands.

Also RIP to all 9 of 10 of little Jedi padawans who cut their heads of in early stages of training

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But the bit I didn’t like the most was that scene with  Sigrun and Harry where Jim , in my hopefully wrong opinion, kind of berated readers who wouldn’t be happy with murphy’s fate it reminded me a bit too much of LKH for comfort.

What's LKH?
Yeah this scene was bit in your face, to the point when I begun to doubt whether Murphy as Einherjaren was not just Butcher's saying "look how cool she was".

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With ivy my main meaning wasn’t that he hadn’t tried to get hold of her at the party but that he hadn’t been in contact with her in general since perhaps her last in person book appearance other then his call for help I am basing that on

Now let's remember Butcher did a lot for last few books to keeping Dresden in contact - first he is dead for about half a year, then he is training in Arctis Tor, then Mab locks his for 16 months on Demonreach (and I'm kinda still angry after all this shit he allows it, and let's himself be tricked - but it was convinient for Butcher as Harry locked up - means his relationships are frozen, and God forbids any relationship stuff happens between books).

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Some hint maybe of camping trips with him and the other Wardens, but did that continue after Carlos was injured?

Carlos was injured after Cold Days, so there was like no chance. Dresden was stuck on Demonreach.
Really he was back in mortal world for 4 months, probably he have not return to Warden duties.

I mean Council should call for him just as he re-emerged after Skin Game - to interrogate him after you know missing for 3 years, not performing Warden duties, letting his warlock apprentice run around alone, and hey remember Doom of Damocles Dresden. Really there should be some action between WC and Dresden before PT.

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Heroic monster, or monsterous hero.

There's nothing monstrous about Dresden and I'm tired pretending him becoming a monster is any serious risk.

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It is entirely possible that a significant portion of why I currently don't like Harry is that he isn't different now, after all that he has been through, ie no growth. The author has resorted back to the default traits of his primary character. Mind you, I'm attempting to cook down several hours of in depth conversation into a small paragraph.

Well generally I disagree about this narcissism claim. Dresden is arrogant, but he is also full of self-doubt, self-fear maybe even loathing, he feels guilty about things are not even his guilt, and is willing to really risk his head for others. Whole point of narcissism is that you lack guilt, you lack empathy, you lack any serious self-introspection. Normal human being will have show narcisstic traits from time to time, but point of narcisstic disorder is - you're like that all the time, and that's all you are. Which Dresden clearly isn't - even if in many aspects he is terribly immature.

That saying I agree about lack of serious growth of character. I'll say even more - other characters have this problem as well.
This is curse of formula - books in DF are like tightly written episodes of TV-series. But there is lot of time between them  - that episodes of TV series lacks.

So for story that spans like 20 seasons, we ultimately gets character development worthy of maybe a season.

Now of course it seems Butcher also reaches out conlusion that's why he decided to write slow psychological Dresden Files (dammit if he'd mature just one book earlier we could get Murphy's aftermatch before killing her, dammit).

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Pretty much this. I don't see how anyone can see Harry as a narcissist. Harry's problem with empathy might be the opposite of a lacking.

Harry really should have made enough money to live a good distance from anyone else or moved somewhere where that wouldn't be too expensive.

But that would not be urban fantasy if Dresden was living 60 miles from city in some old farm.
Even though it would be more suitable for his position.
Then until certain moment - his presence was not beacon for problems on his own.


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As I said, the other people had to have been aware, no one tried to force him out.  Who knows they might even have told him they didn't mind.  We really don't know how rough a neighborhood he lived in, it might be bad enough that even living with a wizard in the building isn't seen as all that dangerous.

but that's not the point - point is what Harry should do - and I mean he should do something other than wait for another attack.
but he is sort of creature of habit as Murphy noticed.
and he won't tolerate bullies

so his stubborness is yes greater than his love for his neighbour
not a narcissism for me, but certainly some flaw



Offline Phygers

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #242 on: November 07, 2020, 04:14:46 AM »
Murphy's spirit/soul cannot leave Valhalla for next few centuries.

What's LKH?

That saying I agree about lack of serious growth of character. I'll say even more - other characters have this problem as well.
This is curse of formula - books in DF are like tightly written episodes of TV-series. But there is lot of time between them  - that episodes of TV series lacks.

So for story that spans like 20 seasons, we ultimately gets character development worthy of maybe a season.
Murphy can leave Valhalla when the memory of her has faded from mortal memory and using faded vs forgotten means something different than no memory. Her memory only has to be weakened or diminished it's just a matter of how faded to use Webster's definition. So there are ways she could return sooner than that or BAT

LKH is Laurell Kaye Hamilton author of the Anita Blake series that she ran/turned a great to start to series into a porn/orgy fest while writing the main as a hero even though she is firmly on the side of the antagonist and drove a good chunk of fans away. Dosen't help fans that are wondering if continue to read DF is a good idea after BG , PT and Murphy being removed to find out that Jim is friends with her and thinks that a crossover would be cool.

The problem that most have with Murph's death is how it was done and handle afterward. We had what 17 books and side stories of H and K interaction and foundation building in the series only for her to used as a something to gut punch Harry and then no real show any kind of fallout to her death after Butters and Sanya snapped him out of turning Rudolph into a bloody smear. Then at the end we have Jim forcing Harry and Lara together it feels like he did it just to get Karrin out of the way for Lara 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 05:41:01 AM by Phygers »

Offline Mira

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #243 on: November 07, 2020, 05:35:19 AM »
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The problem that most have with Murph's death is how it was done and handle afterward. We had what 17 books and side stories of H and K interaction and foundation building in the series only for her to used as a something to gut punch Harry and then no real show any kind of fallout to her death after Butters and Sanya snapped him out turning Rudolph into a bloody smear. Then at the end we have Jim forcing Harry and Lara together it feels like he did it just to get Karrin out of the way for Lara 

Which is a real disappointment, a bitch showdown between the two might have been kind of interesting... ::)

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #244 on: November 07, 2020, 05:40:31 AM »
Oh, I insist with some of my first reactions of BG. Harry and Murphy finally have sex only because JB needed Harry engaged with Lara but not vulnerable. The whole point was to give Harry True Love protection. If not for that, Murphy and Harry would have been still in the "will they, won't they" stage, and I would feel better. Because it's awful that any romantic partner Harry had has been killed or enthralled.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #245 on: November 07, 2020, 10:58:09 AM »
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Murphy can leave Valhalla when the memory of her has faded from mortal memory and using faded vs forgotten means something different than no memory. Her memory only has to be weakened or diminished it's just a matter of how faded to use Webster's definition. So there are ways she could return sooner than that or BAT

Gard was using language of imprecise nature, but somehow I doubt it means - oh, it's only 50% weaker so you can be back.

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LKH is Laurell Kaye Hamilton author of the Anita Blake series that she ran/turned a great to start to series into a porn/orgy fest while writing the main as a hero even though she is firmly on the side of the antagonist and drove a good chunk of fans away.

Ah, ok. I considered reading Anita Blake stories until I read about how main arc changes. That's quite irksome, yes.

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Dosen't help fans that are wondering if continue to read DF is a good idea after BG , PT and Murphy being removed to find out that Jim is friends with her and thinks that a crossover would be cool.

I must say Butcher teasing multiverse is the WORST.
I can accept few splited timeline, but when according to WOJ each choice split reality it cheapens free will imensely. I mean literally that makes free will some bizzare mechanism to produce more alternative universes, not a real power of choice :P
That's what being comics nerd is gonna do to you :(

Nevertheless I somehow doubt we gonna see a real crossover, maybe some tribute, and while I get PT/BG has it's problem, I don't think it's anywhere shift so drastic as what Hamilton did with Blake.

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The problem that most have with Murph's death is how it was done and handle afterward. We had what 17 books and side stories of H and K interaction and foundation building in the series only for her to used as a something to gut punch Harry and then no real show any kind of fallout to her death after Butters and Sanya snapped him out of turning Rudolph into a bloody smear. Then at the end we have Jim forcing Harry and Lara together it feels like he did it just to get Karrin out of the way for Lara

Well here we are bit in a traps of formula aspect. Fast paced, time constrained events overall limits character development much (and usually it happens only in stories despite them covering like 1% of time) - exception was "Ghost Story" which sort of used "while-you-were-gone" scenarios - but even then it was used to torture Harry a bit. I mean let's face it - those stories are very Harry-centric. Maybe bit too much. So basically what happend to others from story perspective is by blood demiurge Butcher considered in large as way to punch Harry in some hard way.
Like look - he witness like every death of character known to him in the Battle. (ok with Wild Bill and Yoshimo sort of ONLY direct aftermatch).

I think Murphy was planned to die - and I think also her Valhalla ascencion was planned since at least "Changes" (and mind is WOJ is that Karrin was meant to die even earlier - but she was too cool) - but method of killing was done in quite Harry-centric way - first she saved his life from the giant, then she was killed in such sudden, random way by minor villain - to push Harry to a dark side a bit (and even this was stopped by Knights - because for all teasing Butcher is not comfortable with those morality blurs for serious).

Also I kinda think - wedding with Lara will be sort of make for laughs, and there will be no real romance.
I mean in first draft of series - there was no 12 months - just mirror mirror.
I think most crucial thing was killing Murphy before Mirror, Mirror - to torture Dresden even more in MM. I mean it's usually to torture Dresden.

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Which is a real disappointment, a bitch showdown between the two might have been kind of interesting... ::)

Molly/Lara bitch showdown will be more than enough XD

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Oh, I insist with some of my first reactions of BG. Harry and Murphy finally have sex only because JB needed Harry engaged with Lara but not vulnerable. The whole point was to give Harry True Love protection. If not for that, Murphy and Harry would have been still in the "will they, won't they" stage, and I would feel better. Because it's awful that any romantic partner Harry had has been killed or enthralled.

But by WOJ you don't have to have sex to estabilish True Love protection though intimacy helps.
(Now other thing I really dislike this True Love schtick for whampires, and I think it does not fit at all with how you repell fear and despair whampires according to WOJ - which is by courage and hope - so my take is romantic love True or not is not anathema, opposition of lust. Usually it's tamer of it - but not direct opposition. In other cases we have more like emotional state that is in direct opposition of what whampire try to do to you.

Also I think not... overall. Murphy was goner, she had to die before Mirror, Mirror so alt-Murphy would be greater torture for Harry.
But that also sort means Murphy had to went into loved one stage to hit those nails even harder. So I think even without Lara they would get together before her demise to put things in most devastating position before we seen Darth Dresden World.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #246 on: November 07, 2020, 01:40:47 PM »
Do read Anita Blake. They were the first urban fantasy books I read. I am interested at what book you decide to stop.  ;D

Obsidian butterfly was the last one I really read. I could not get through the later ones and stopped buying them.
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #247 on: November 07, 2020, 01:58:53 PM »
Maybe I give it a shot.
The first truly Urban/Paranormal Fantasy books I've read was probably Neil Gaiman - Neverwhere and American Gods, and in terms of series Felix Castor books.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #248 on: November 07, 2020, 02:18:45 PM »
Maybe I give it a shot.
The first truly Urban/Paranormal Fantasy books I've read was probably Neil Gaiman - Neverwhere and American Gods, and in terms of series Felix Castor books.
I read Lovecraft earlier in my teens but that is more horror I suppose.
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #249 on: November 07, 2020, 02:29:25 PM »
I think UF/PF should have tropes of either crime, thriller, romance story mixed with fantasy stuff in real world. Otherwise it's horror.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #250 on: November 07, 2020, 05:31:45 PM »
I think UF/PF should have tropes of either crime, thriller, romance story mixed with fantasy stuff in real world. Otherwise it's horror.
I think the difference is that horror is primarily meant to scare you, all other themes are secondary.   
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #251 on: November 07, 2020, 06:26:07 PM »
If so then why comedies like Friday the 13 or Elm Street are listed as horrors :P

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #252 on: November 07, 2020, 06:57:32 PM »
But by WOJ you don't have to have sex to estabilish True Love protection though intimacy helps.
(Now other thing I really dislike this True Love schtick for whampires, and I think it does not fit at all with how you repell fear and despair whampires according to WOJ - which is by courage and hope - so my take is romantic love True or not is not anathema, opposition of lust. Usually it's tamer of it - but not direct opposition. In other cases we have more like emotional state that is in direct opposition of what whampire try to do to you.

Also I think not... overall. Murphy was goner, she had to die before Mirror, Mirror so alt-Murphy would be greater torture for Harry.
But that also sort means Murphy had to went into loved one stage to hit those nails even harder. So I think even without Lara they would get together before her demise to put things in most devastating position before we seen Darth Dresden World.

What? I remember WoJ saying that sex and the possibility of a conception were a requirement for a True Love protection. I remember it well because there was a lot of discussion here about Jim Butcher being an homophobic.

And I know Murphy had to die, but the sex thing was, IMHO, only for the Protection.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #253 on: November 07, 2020, 08:15:33 PM »
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What? I remember WoJ saying that sex and the possibility of a conception were a requirement for a True Love protection. I remember it well because there was a lot of discussion here about Jim Butcher being an homophobic.

Maybe he changed mind. Last I've read intimacy is useful and make protection stronger - but is not necessary, and I'm quite sure he said gays are not excluded. (And I mean wasn't it strongly implied that it was like sex without possibility of conception because Dresden would not risk hurting her)?

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And I know Murphy had to die, but the sex thing was, IMHO, only for the Protection.

Here I have quote from: "Q:  What protections are there against the White Court? 
A:  True love – real true love, not just romantic love – protects only against WC vamps feeding through lust/intimacy.
2010 Lee’s Summit signing
Q:  Do you have to have sex in order to have protection from the White Court?
A:  No, you don’t have to.  It is helpful, though."

I must say - I don't like this True Love bullshit, I do not really believe in such things, so I'm like meh about it - and it's not consistent with how fear and despair whampires are repelled. You do not need mutual courage of two people to burn Malvora really.
But if anything I'm glad at least Jim does not makes it ritual sex magic but leave it on emotional status.

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #254 on: November 07, 2020, 08:23:36 PM »
Ah, I like that better. So, if he really changed his mind, I am glad. Still, intimacy works for my idea. Dresden and Murph have not been so intimate until PT.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)