The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
But my overall theory about why MM Harry is evil is TBH necromancy.
It's a long time since we've got proper Necro thread, whole kill your doppelganger is implied to by our world Kemmler way to avoid White Council, Mavra is meant to be Darth Harry ally (or ally of Prime Harry against Darth Dresden - there is grammatical possibility), Dracul was teased as part of Stars and Stones.
So my bet in this regard is - that of three apocalypses - Empty Night being Outsider driven, Hell Bells denarian driven, last one is gonna be necro / dark wizards one. And they are the ones that god least attention hiding well in shadows.
I think Mirror!Dresden is Black Council - and we're gonna get big infodump about them thanks to Mirror Mirror that will help Dresden fighting them in next books
--- Quote ---Here's the dilemma. If you can't read the future, what good is the exercise of free will? At best you're guessing. What you can do is to be true to yourself. So Harry is the type of man that couldn't walk away. And if he does then he has abandoned what it is to be him.
--- End quote ---
Becasue free will is not only about foresight of consequences. It's about choosing what's wrong and what's right. Picking one of options.
I believe that any choice is true to yourself - by which I mean human beings are complicated not simple like angels, and they have various drives. So I do not really believe in this true to myself - what myself - my Shia Islam Sufi superego or my id of predator hedonist? Both are part of me like my hands and arms... If something is not from myself - I'd not be able to choose it really. I could not just take a knife and stab someone randomly, as it's just no there. But multiple other goods and evils are.
--- Quote ---That is an assumption, or they might see an avenging angel, which would also make them faint.
--- End quote ---
but would Bradley then act as he acted?
--- Quote ---But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried. However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion. In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it.
--- End quote ---
He would feel such shame after killing Rudolph anyway TBH if there was no Butters to stop him.
--- Quote ---That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.
--- End quote ---
Turn every book in another story - another corrupting influence after another. Another justification for greater good after another.
It was 14 years since Grave Peril. Lot of time to go dark.
Mira:
--- Quote ---but would Bradley then act as he acted?
--- End quote ---
It happened without warning, he had no clue that such a think as a soul gaze was even possible, plus the atmosphere was tense in the extreme. So good or evil, what Bradly saw would scared the hell out of him, or at least startled. If he saw what the cornerhounds saw according to Harry, that is scary.
--- Quote ---He would feel such shame after killing Rudolph anyway TBH if there was no Butters to stop him.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, but if he had killed him that bell cannot be unrung.. Butters and the Sword brought him back to his senses, then he felt shame for losing it like he did. Just as Eb was upset and ashamed that he lost control when he went after Harry, Harry likewise was upset and ashamed of himself for losing control.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 18, 2020, 02:30:27 AM ---But why we assume Mirror!Harry is natural Harry, and our Harry splited history by acting against himself?
Or should we assume each decision creates sort of fake universes that are copies of original one - with fake starting decisions or something?
Or do you mean all decisions were against nature - and all Dresdens are fake or smth? But then why not NATURAL decision?
--- End quote ---
Any decision that isn't against one's nature doesn't create an alternate reality according to Jim. So the "natural" decision would be a decision that isn't against one's nature and wouldn't be an exercise of free will.
So my explanation is that whenever one exercises free will, there are multiple timelines branching off that point. Each timeline is one in which the actor has exercised free will to act against his nature. No timeline exists in which free will was not exercised.
Without exercising choice Harry would have done X in GP. But he exercised free will in that book and did Y. In MM, Harry exercised free will and did Z. Y was a good path. Z was a good path. There is no universe in which Harry did X. There may be universes in which Harry did something other than X, Y, and Z, but we don't know because we don't have any indication of a third universe.
None of the Harry's are the natural/choiceless Harry, and all are equally real.
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 19, 2020, 01:15:38 AM ---all possible Dresdens exists.
--- End quote ---
In my theory, a limited number of Dresdens exist. As few as two, but maybe a lot. Definitely less than all imaginable Dresdens.
On the male gaze thing, I think that one has to ignore a great many character descriptions to reach a lot of the "male gaze" descriptions of characters that appear in the books. For example, in DB several female characters appear. The only one that gets the male gaze treatment is the one trying to seduce Harry. (And maybe the naked jogger, I don't really remember).
--- Quote from: Dina on November 21, 2020, 09:13:58 AM ---That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.
--- End quote ---
Everybody has external influences.
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 21, 2020, 02:39:32 PM ---But my overall theory about why MM Harry is evil is TBH necromancy.
--- End quote ---
IMO, NecroHarry would probably be the coolest evil Harry.
According to the timeline, it's currently 13 years after GP, so it's at least 14 years after GP, but it might also be more depending on time between 12 Months and MM.
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---Any decision that isn't against one's nature doesn't create an alternate reality according to Jim. So the "natural" decision would be a decision that isn't against one's nature and wouldn't be an exercise of free will.
--- End quote ---
Is there a WOJ to that? That would be weird to me, considering free will sort of is part of our nature, it's what defines mortals in Dresdenverse.
Using free will as against of own nature in this regard is weird.
--- Quote ---Without exercising choice Harry would have done X in GP. But he exercised free will in that book and did Y. In MM, Harry exercised free will and did Z. Y was a good path. Z was a good path. There is no universe in which Harry did X. There may be universes in which Harry did something other than X, Y, and Z, but we don't know because we don't have any indication of a third universe.
--- End quote ---
But why do we assume there is not like basic universe where Harry did X?
Also - overall it seems to me Dresden had not done anything against his very character in GP. He was faithful to it - till end. Burn the world to save one soul - that's very much natural Dresden as we know him. I mean if option of acting against oneself has power to split the universes - that still should include - option 0 being preserved.
But then you seems to consider that you "exercise" free will only when you act against yourself - not every time you stand against real choice, which is quite weird definition of "exercise" for me. It's like you using exercise like physical exercise, when one has to struggle to get gains.
I see it more as exercising your power over something - each time you do it, you're using your power even if it's easy for you.
So option that only unnatural Dresden's exist is bit weird to me.
If you have quote I'd like to see it, if not - well I think we should hunt for another AMA or Q&A and ask him long and convoluted questions about nature of free will and multiverse.
--- Quote ---On the male gaze thing, I think that one has to ignore a great many character descriptions to reach a lot of the "male gaze" descriptions of characters that appear in the books. For example, in DB several female characters appear. The only one that gets the male gaze treatment is the one trying to seduce Harry. (And maybe the naked jogger, I don't really remember).
--- End quote ---
Agree. And it was pointed to me, that many characters get too much descriptions over and over, so maybe sexy babes stood bit more - but it's the same with guys and other beings. Descriptive guy Dresden it.
--- Quote ---In my theory, a limited number of Dresdens exist. As few as two, but maybe a lot. Definitely less than all imaginable Dresdens.
--- End quote ---
That I agree. Still this will be massive number - because it's not just his descisions spliting reality but all 7 bln mortals around.
Some of those splits can be identical from Dresden Files perspective as butterfly effect shall never caught to him, but there are probably worlds when Dresden is different not because of own choice split - but because someone put him in situation when entirely different set of choices and actions was possible.
--- Quote ---Agreed, but if he had killed him that bell cannot be unrung..
--- End quote ---
Consequences could not. But from perspective of Dresden soul and character however paradoxically it can seem it could be better. It could push him to stronger spiritual jihad for instance, and stronger grasp of control, and overall better morality.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Consequences could not. But from perspective of Dresden soul and character however paradoxically it can seem it could be better. It could push him to stronger spiritual jihad for instance, and stronger grasp of control, and overall better morality.
--- End quote ---
Yes, it does appear that the implications of what he almost did, has pushed him to a better grasp of control and overall morality. That is why he feels shame, that is why he keeps referring to the burn on his wrist, what it reminds him of. That is why he faced up to the members of the Accords like he did to make amends to the people of Chicago.
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