The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Jury Duty and the Peace Talks
Mira:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on September 21, 2020, 06:51:45 PM ---But we also have Shiro telling Harry, I think in his letter, that Harry has a harder path because he lives in the grey.
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He is telling Harry that because as a Knight of the Cross, the light, it is pretty clear cut, who they are fighting and why. The Knights of the Cross's foes are the holders of the coins of the Fallen, the dark.. Where in Harry's world things aren't so clear cut. He loves Thomas as his brother. Thomas has saved his life and has done a lot of good, but he has caused a lot of pain also, hence his screams in his cell as he feels the pain he has inflicted on others. I think Marcone is a better case for the subject of shades of grey, on many levels he is a bad man, but there is that corner of him that feels guilt over what happened to that little girl. He is the one at the moment who is trying to rally everyone together to save the city, yet once saved, if he survives, he will go back to ruling his underworld of corruption.
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In real life we would probably still see them as human because biologically they are. We would lock them up as multiple rapists and killers and then at some point their hunger would eat them. Or we would lock them up as not accountable but dangerous In special institutions and then at some point the hunger would eat them.
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But they do not see themselves as evil, they do what they do to survive, it's their nature. Would you call a cat evil because it kills and sometimes eats beautiful birds? That's the grey area, there are White Court Vamps that are clearly evil, Lord Raith qualifies.. However Harry made the judgement that Lara runs more to the grey side of things, capable of doing evil, but less so, so he helped her to overthrow her father.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 21, 2020, 08:23:29 PM ---He is telling Harry that because as a Knight of the Cross, the light, it is pretty clear cut, who they are fighting and why. The Knights of the Cross's foes are the holders of the coins of the Fallen, the dark.. Where in Harry's world things aren't so clear cut. He loves Thomas as his brother. Thomas has saved his life and has done a lot of good, but he has caused a lot of pain also, hence his screams in his cell as he feels the pain he has inflicted on others. I think Marcone is a better case for the subject of shades of grey, on many levels he is a bad man, but there is that corner of him that feels guilt over what happened to that little girl. He is the one at the moment who is trying to rally everyone together to save the city, yet once saved, if he survives, he will go back to ruling his underworld of corruption.
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Working with a lesser evil can be necessary in real life but the distinction between good and evil in the dresdenverse is a rather principled thing. Marcone is evil. That shouldn’t stop Harry from working with him for the greater good but he is still evil.
--- Quote ---But they do not see themselves as evil,
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So what? Very few evil people see themselves as evil.
--- Quote --- they do what they do to survive, it's their nature. Would you call a cat evil because it kills and sometimes eats beautiful birds?
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White court vampires are intelligent. They and react to sticks and carrots. They are either creatures that can behave themselves and can be punished for breaking laws or they are dangerous creatures that have to be controlled. Cure, punish or destroy, that would be the question.
Not let them kill humans because they can not help it.
If they existed in real life of course. In the dresdenverse they are ignored because of the masquerade.
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That's the grey area, there are White Court Vamps that are clearly evil, Lord Raith qualifies.. However Harry made the judgement that Lara runs more to the grey side of things, capable of doing evil, but less so, so he helped her to overthrow her father.
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The morality of Lara was not part of his motivation, he knows Lara is evil but her father was the evil that at that moment was killing his brother and he had killed his mother. Lara was the evil he could work with and as Lara discovered the evil he could manipulate to be his cats pawn.
Mira:
--- Quote ---The morality of Lara was not part of his motivation, he knows Lara is evil but her father was the evil that at that moment was killing his brother and he had killed his mother. Lara was the evil he could work with and as Lara discovered the evil he could manipulate to be his cats pawn.
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Which is the grey area.. Marcone is evil, but he does things that are not always evil, he has grey areas that can be worked with, same applies to Lara. And no, remember the end of Turn Coat at the Zoo the conversation Harry was having with Thomas about humans as food/prey/kine? They don't see that behavior as evil, anymore than a lion does. However they understand that the rest of us do see it as evil so they moderate their behavior to survive.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 21, 2020, 10:00:41 PM ---Which is the grey area.. Marcone is evil, but he does things that are not always evil, he has grey areas that can be worked with, same applies to Lara. And no, remember the end of Turn Coat at the Zoo the conversation Harry was having with Thomas about humans as food/prey/kine? They don't see that behavior as evil, anymore than a lion does. However they understand that the rest of us do see it as evil so they moderate their behavior to survive.
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There is good evidence that not even Nicodemus sees his own behavior as evil, Deirdre certainly did not. It doesn’t matter. They are evil.
How they deluded themselves does not stop them being evil in the dresdenverse.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on September 21, 2020, 10:46:40 PM ---There is good evidence that not even Nicodemus sees his own behavior as evil, Deirdre certainly did not. It doesn’t matter. They are evil.
How they deluded themselves does not stop them being evil in the dresdenverse.
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True, but it effects how they behave, that is my point. It is hard to get Lara or Nic to reform their ways if they do not see that they are wrong, even evil. They will modify their behavior to some degree to exist successfully in society, but it doesn't make them less evil. They might even call themselves a necessary evil that one has to get along with, that is the gray area and can be a difficult judgement call to make. Like that moment on the beach when Harry pressed Thomas about being a father, for an instant Thomas transformed into something dangerous even evil, then changed back to Thomas. For that instant Harry feared his brother, something I don't ever remember him doing even at the end of Turn Coat when Shaggy had forever changed how Thomas viewed the world.
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