The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
AMA Highlights
vultur:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 31, 2020, 11:29:06 AM ---And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.
--- End quote ---
Eh, I'm not sure that's exactly what that means ... I think the whole "longest shadow, darkest dream" bit is more about how Mother Winter is the End Of All Things (though she may more accurately be one half of it).
'Darkness' might be ambiguous here. MW is basically entropy, I think. I'm not sure she's exactly 'evil' in the sense the Fallen are, beings that made a conscious Choice to be evil.
[And to me the way the Mothers talk about futures unfolding and Outsider victory being a final end in CD makes me think that the Mothers are limited to one universe. The destruction of any particular universe wouldn't mean "everything ends" for Uriel or Lucifer.
That may not be exactly the same thing as being of greater 'power', though. Demonreach is probably stronger than Mab on his island, but has much less ability to act. The Mothers could easily be as strong as archangels within their own universe.]
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Dina on September 01, 2020, 04:19:28 AM ---I don't know what is JB idea, or what happens in his universe. But in our world, the Christian tradition says that Lucifer is not the opposite of God. God has not opposite. Literally. Lucifer and his followers fought other angels, but God is above all that.
--- End quote ---
check your mythology again, as the Adversary, before the fall, it was literally his job to oppose the status quo. Yes I know that doesn't make him opposite, though if you go back farther to the Jewish cabbala it does. God manifest is the aeon of our level of reality, literally just an Archangel,(which of course is only a piece of God, like his mouth) where as The Adversary is his dark reflection able to act in cosmic imbalance. And who takes over this Job when Lucifer falls? His wife Lilith.. Lilith as Nemesis/the Adversary is sooo thematically correct.
--- Quote from: vultur on September 01, 2020, 09:26:47 AM ---Eh, I'm not sure that's exactly what that means ... I think the whole "longest shadow, darkest dream" bit is more about how Mother Winter is the End Of All Things (though she may more accurately be one half of it).
'Darkness' might be ambiguous here. MW is basically entropy, I think. I'm not sure she's exactly 'evil' in the sense the Fallen are, beings that made a conscious Choice to be evil.
[And to me the way the Mothers talk about futures unfolding and Outsider victory being a final end in CD makes me think that the Mothers are limited to one universe. The destruction of any particular universe wouldn't mean "everything ends" for Uriel or Lucifer.
That may not be exactly the same thing as being of greater 'power', though. Demonreach is probably stronger than Mab on his island, but has much less ability to act. The Mothers could easily be as strong as archangels within their own universe.]
--- End quote ---
sure she is, but it's also directly correlated to size=power. Those names were not made up for no reason. Even HHWBHs boss is seeking the shadows, to corrupt or to collect. And... I tend to think that's exactly what it is, they are Archangel level power(well, when they combine anyway) holding down reality. The Creator was never bigger than the others in that way, he just has home turf advantage. Maybe I'm listening to a different conversation than you, but the way they talk implies they are NOT so limited to me. To see multiple futures unfolding all at the same time, you have to be able to exist in them simultaneously. something for instance that the gatekeeper appears unable to do in TC.
*And the hunters if shadows/shadows of the hunters bit too..
**Ooooh, and thank you for reminding me she's called darkest dream, I had forgotten.. but it fits into a theory I have that all the sleepers dream, and in dreaming create their own domain of the dream, and that would be the outer gates made manifest I think...
vultur:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on September 01, 2020, 01:01:11 PM ---check your mythology again, as the Adversary, before the fall, it was literally his job to oppose the status quo. Yes I know that doesn't make him opposite, though if you go back farther to the Jewish cabbala it does. God manifest is the aeon of our level of reality
--- End quote ---
I think you are mixing a bunch of different and probably incompatible interpretations. The Dresdenverse does tend to have an 'everything is real somewhere' aspect, but I don't think all incompatible interpretations of the same beings (such as God and Lucifer/Satan) can simultaneously be true.
Aeons as manifestations of God is a Gnostic thing, and I don't think the Gnostic view of reality is compatible with what we've seen of Dresdenverse cosmology.
Lilith is similarly a 'non-mainstream' concept, can't necessarily be assumed to exist in the DV and certainly not as wife of Lucifer/Satan. (If anything, I'd expect Lilith in the DV to be a misinterpretation of or alternate name for Lasciel, given her "playing both sides" aspect.)
--- Quote ---Those names were not made up for no reason.
--- End quote ---
Oh sure... but I think 'shadow' and 'darkness' are being used metaphorically in a couple of ways that don't exactly line up. In the Winter-Summer opposition, Summer is Light and Winter is Darkness (Mab is Queen of Air and Darkness). In the Heaven-Hell opposition, Heaven is Light and Hell is Darkness.
That doesn't mean Winter=Hell or Summer=Heaven.
--- Quote --- To see multiple futures unfolding all at the same time, you have to be able to exist in them simultaneously.
--- End quote ---
No, even Abby (a very weak talent) can do this in WN. That is just what it means to be able to see the future in the DV, it's always multiple possibilities.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: vultur on September 01, 2020, 11:19:20 PM ---I think you are mixing a bunch of different and probably incompatible interpretations. The Dresdenverse does tend to have an 'everything is real somewhere' aspect, but I don't think all incompatible interpretations of the same beings (such as God and Lucifer/Satan) can simultaneously be true.
Aeons as manifestations of God is a Gnostic thing, and I don't think the Gnostic view of reality is compatible with what we've seen of Dresdenverse cosmology.
Lilith is similarly a 'non-mainstream' concept, can't necessarily be assumed to exist in the DV and certainly not as wife of Lucifer/Satan. (If anything, I'd expect Lilith in the DV to be a misinterpretation of or alternate name for Lasciel, given her "playing both sides" aspect.)
Oh sure... but I think 'shadow' and 'darkness' are being used metaphorically in a couple of ways that don't exactly line up. In the Winter-Summer opposition, Summer is Light and Winter is Darkness (Mab is Queen of Air and Darkness). In the Heaven-Hell opposition, Heaven is Light and Hell is Darkness.
That doesn't mean Winter=Hell or Summer=Heaven.
No, even Abby (a very weak talent) can do this in WN. That is just what it means to be able to see the future in the DV, it's always multiple possibilities.
--- End quote ---
Abby is not doing that, that is specifically why she's sometimes wrong, she's seeing direct variations of the same future. I don't find that to be exactly the same,
Aeons changing is basically what the second coming is about, which has been directly referenced in the DF btw.
I don't see your point about the darkness thing, it not meaning that can just as easily mean that in other situations... And a equals b doesn't mean it equals c type of thing.
Nor does her unlikely hood take precedence over her likely hood to be in it. It was very unlikely of Jim to choose Etruscan and that version of the Greek Nemesis, but I believe he did.
vultur:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on September 02, 2020, 02:10:53 AM --- Abby is not doing that, that is specifically why she's sometimes wrong, she's seeing direct variations of the same future. I don't find that to be exactly the same,
--- End quote ---
I don't think there's a difference, except for scale (Abby doesn't look far enough ahead to see drastic divergences).
But its sometimes being wrong is exactly because she can see different possible futures and doesn't necessarily know which turns out to be the real one.
From the context of the conversation, I think the Mothers are still looking at multiple possible futures unfolding from a *single* Now.
And I don't think Mother Summer would speak in terms of "empty night", "everything ends", if she was cross-universe and thus the destruction of Harry's universe would only impact an infinitesimal fraction of her being.
--- Quote ---Aeons changing is basically what the second coming is about, which has been directly referenced in the DF btw.
--- End quote ---
Aeon in the original meaning of "an age", relevant to the Second Coming/End of Days, transition from the current age to Eternity, is something very different from Aeon as a manifestation of God which is itself divine (a Gnostic concept), which is what I thought you were referring to with Uriel being a manifestation of TWG/the Creator.
--- Quote ---I don't see your point about the darkness thing
--- End quote ---
Just that Mother Winter being called "longest shadow, darkest dream" etc. doesn't mean she is more powerful than Lucifer.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version