If Not Mab, Could Nic Be Behind What Thomas Did?

[Mira]

   I am still mostly on board with the idea that it was Mab who manipulated Thomas for her own four dimensional chess reasons in the greater game.  Then another thought came to me, if not Mab,who?  One logical candidate for that is Nic.  He lost a lot of prestige and power at the end of Skin Game.  Damn straight, he wants it back, and he wants revenge.  He hosts Andruiel who knows almost everything that is going on, so Nic would know about the dilemma that Thomas and Justine face with her pregnancy.  He also has the Grail, with that he could possibly if not heal outright, at least keep the Hunger from eating Justine.  While Thomas might know better than to accept a coin, he might agree to blow up the peace talks by an assassination attempt in exchange for keeping Justine safe.   Nic gets his revenge against Mab and Harry.  He may even think in a perverse way, if he uses the Grail to heal Chicago in the aftermath, he will gain lots of influence and power.  He becomes a hero that even Michael would have a hard time faulting, thus putting him in the catbird seat once again.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Shroud is the healer, the Grail is a purifier, in Arthurian Lore whilst many powerful knights sought the Grail, only the pure virgin Galahad was able to obtain it. Paging Mr Carlos Ramirez.

I think Harry will at some point for the first time take the fight to Nicky ending the Denarians and finding out vital info as to the Fall. He will need the Grail for part of a larger ritual (cleansing of Nemesis) but one one the best person to be able to use the grail will Carlos and/or Molly. Imagine a spell so large it requires 5 wizards to anchor it  each with affinities to each of the objects. As a weapon Harry would have the Athame, Carlos the Grail, Listens to Wind the Shroud, leaving the Crown of Thorns and Placard to others. If I am right and the Crown is Thorn manacles for a god, and the Placard a communicator (both to the person afflicted and the world), you would need Wizards with affinities in those areas, GateKeeper and the Merlin perhaps? This could kill the older participants.

[Arjan]

Thomas created this problem himself. He was running low and starving his hunger again. Justine must have had true love protection since the conception so when Thomas lost control the demon could not fed on her and became even more crazy and ran out of control to the nearest food source it remembered, the svartalf embassy.

[Mira]

Thomas created this problem himself. He was running low and starving his hunger again. Justine must have had true love protection since the conception so when Thomas lost control the demon could not fed on her and became even more crazy and ran out of control to the nearest food source it remembered, the svartalf embassy.

 1]  How do you figure Justine had true love protection since the conception?  She had sex with another so her and Thomas could have sex, somehow she conceived, if she still had true love
protection, she wouldn't be in any danger from the embyro Hunger, in fact her placenta should burn it out.. However she has no protection, she lost that in Ghost Story.

  I think you are confused, it isn't Thomas' demon Hunger that is feeding on her, it is their baby's Hunger demon.. Unless because Thomas is half non vamp, and Justine is all vanilla human, their child had no Hunger demon.  If that is the case, poor Thomas put himself through a lot for nothing.

[vultur]

I wouldn't necessarily assume True Love protection would make the pregnancy safe for Justine. It *could*, but it's not guaranteed.

True Love isn't a bane to all Whampires and the "type" may not be genetic (Madrigal Raith fed on fear). There's a WOJ suggesting the division in what Whampires feed on is largely political/cultural.

So maybe you would need True Love, True Courage, and True Hope to be protected from an incipient, not-yet-specialized Hunger.

[Arjan]

1]  How do you figure Justine had true love protection since the conception?  She had sex with another so her and Thomas could have sex, somehow she conceived, if she still had true love
protection, she wouldn't be in any danger from the embyro Hunger, in fact her placenta should burn it out.. However she has no protection, she lost that in Ghost Story.

And she got the protection again after they had sex and confirmed their love. Rinse and repeat as said in ghost story.

So she lost it again and she got it again. The important thing is that after Thomas decided not to feed from Justine again, when he discovered Justine’s pregnancy, Justine had no sex with other people. Justine got her protection and Thomas decided to keep the protection and for that he had to stop feeding himself, he starved his demon.

  I think you are confused, it isn't Thomas' demon Hunger that is feeding on her, it is their baby's Hunger demon.. Unless because Thomas is half non vamp, and Justine is all vanilla human, their child had no Hunger demon.  If that is the case, poor Thomas put himself through a lot for nothing.

Why should the true love protection work against the demon inside the child in the womb? I see no reason why it has to though Jim could decide so. But I think he did not.

And of course the baby hunger is feeding on her but that does not mean Thomas hunger does not want to feed on her and fed on her in the past. Until Thomas stopped.

[Mira]

And she got the protection again after they had sex and confirmed their love. Rinse and repeat as said in ghost story.

No, she had sex with another person, that ended her protection, then her and Thomas could touch each other and have sex without him getting burned.  Harry was protected by his and Susan's love from Lara's kiss, it burned her.  When he had sex with Luccio the protection ended. 

Why should the true love protection work against the demon inside the child in the womb? I see no reason why it has to though Jim could decide so. But I think he did not.

It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine.  If she still had true love's protection, it couldn't do that, it would burn it. 

Thomas' Hunger has nothing to do with it, he is feeding elsewhere.

[Arjan]

No, she had sex with another person, that ended her protection, then her and Thomas could touch each other and have sex without him getting burned.  Harry was protected by his and Susan's love from Lara's kiss, it burned her.  When he had sex with Luccio the protection ended. 

It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine.  If she still had true love's protection, it couldn't do that, it would burn it. 

Thomas' Hunger has nothing to do with it, he is feeding elsewhere.

Thomas in chapter one is not a stable well fed vampire. It reads as the beginning of a collapse.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Thomas was feeding on Evanna and other Swartalves, a bit here a bit there.

[Mira]

Thomas in chapter one is not a stable well fed vampire. It reads as the beginning of a collapse.

But what he is worried about is this..
page 2 Peace Talks

"The usual, mostly, Except that the baby's Hunger will draw life energy from Justine.  She's going to be fed upon continuously for the next seven and a half months.
I studied him.  "Is that dangerous?"
He swallowed.  "According to the family records, just over fifty percent either don't survive the delivery or die shortly after."

It isn't about Thomas starving himself or feeding off of Justine, it is about the baby's Hunger feeding off of her to the point where she is too weak to survive giving birth. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Thomas would become an out and out monster like his father except for Justine.

[Mira]

Thomas would become an out and out monster like his father except for Justine.

  And Harry as well, remember when Thomas broke with his family and went to live with Harry he tried very hard not to feed to the point of starvation.  That is when he came up with the solution of being a hair dresser, he could snack all day on his clients, be full at the end of it, give pleasure and do no harm.  Actually those early days together demonstrate how little Harry understood White Court Vamps, if I remember correctly he had hope that Thomas could get along without feeding.

[Bad Alias]

Imagine a spell so large it requires 5 wizards to anchor it  each with affinities to each of the objects. As a weapon Harry would have the Athame, Carlos the Grail, Listens to Wind the Shroud, leaving the Crown of Thorns and Placard to others. If I am right and the Crown is Thorn manacles for a god, and the Placard a communicator (both to the person afflicted and the world), you would need Wizards with affinities in those areas, GateKeeper and the Merlin perhaps? This could kill the older participants.

If that's the way it's going, I think it would be cool if all the wizards were "young." Elaine could work for the Shroud or Placard because we've seen her use memory as a weapon, so she's probably apt at the mental communication magic, and we've seen her use healing magic.

No, she had sex with another person, that ended her protection, then her and Thomas could touch each other and have sex without him getting burned.

When they had sex again, it is assumed the protection was reacquired. Why do you think it wasn't?

It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine.

Apparently? No, it isn't apparent.

If she still had true love's protection, it couldn't do that, it would burn it.

How do you know? This is just a bald assertion. Others have given reasons why this could not be the case. To counter that, you need to give reasons; not bald assertions.

[Mira]

How do you know? This is just a bald assertion. Others have given reasons why this could not be the case. To counter that, you need to give reasons; not bald assertions.

True love is so powerful that even touching the wedding ring of someone or a rose given to someone with true love protection will burn..  Justine had sex with that girl, thus canceling her protection, that is clearly stated through out the books and that was her motive in bringing the girl home to introduce her to Thomas, they had sex, then she and Thomas could touch each other without him getting burned and thus have sex.  Thomas himself said that the embryo's Hunger will feed off of Justine, that is on page three of Peace Talks.  Justine isn't protected any more, that isn't a bald assertion, those are the rules that Jim has set down.. Have sex with another, you lose your true love protection from the Hunger demon feeding on you.  If the embryo has the seed of the Hunger inside it, there is nothing to stop it from feeding on Justine.

When they had sex again, it is assumed the protection was reacquired. Why do you think it wasn't?

When Thomas fed off of Justine the first few times, she was just food, then he fell in love with her and he could no longer touch her.  Remember she used to wear a special rubber suit so he could put his arms around her?  Then in Ghost Story she had sex with another, that ended her protection.. Since Thomas was still have sex with her, she got pregnant after all, she has no protection it wasn't acquired.

    It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine.

Apparently? No, it isn't apparent.

To Thomas it is, on page three of Peace Talks, he says clearly no if ands or buts, that the baby's hunger was going to feed off of Justine until it was born.  And that this weakens the mother to the point where less than fifty percent survive giving birth.

[Bad Alias]

True love is so powerful that even touching the wedding ring of someone or a rose given to someone with true love protection will burn..  Justine had sex with that girl, thus canceling her protection, that is clearly stated through out the books and that was her motive in bringing the girl home to introduce her to Thomas, they had sex, then she and Thomas could touch each other without him getting burned and thus have sex.  Thomas himself said that the embryo's Hunger will feed off of Justine, that is on page three of Peace Talks.  Justine isn't protected any more, that isn't a bald assertion, those are the rules that Jim has set down.. Have sex with another, you lose your true love protection from the Hunger demon feeding on you.  If the embryo has the seed of the Hunger inside it, there is nothing to stop it from feeding on Justine.

The others reasoning is that the embryo demon is different. Nothing you say addresses that.

When Thomas fed off of Justine the first few times, she was just food, then he fell in love with her and he could no longer touch her.  Remember she used to wear a special rubber suit so he could put his arms around her?  Then in Ghost Story she had sex with another, that ended her protection.. Since Thomas was still have sex with her, she got pregnant after all, she has no protection it wasn't acquired.

Why does Justine keep bringing girls to Thomas for them to have sex with? Why did she say "rinse and repeat?" Why does the trailer show them not having direct physical contact. You're ignoring the point everyone's bringing up.

To Thomas it is, on page three of Peace Talks, he says clearly no if ands or buts, that the baby's hunger was going to feed off of Justine until it was born.  And that this weakens the mother to the point where less than fifty percent survive giving birth.

You say that Justine doesn't have true love protection, the baby can feed off of Justine, therefore Justine doesn't have true love protection. Both of your premises are assumptions and you're conclusion is one of your premises.

Thomas says the demon feeds off the mother. How many wamps have been carried by one with true love protection? I highly doubt that number is equal to or greater than 1. Thomas may not have even thought about it. Further, as others have pointed out, as the demon baby isn't using lust to feed, true love protection might be meaningless to it.