Vadderung

[Yuillegan]

In Peace Talks Harry says Vadderung looks rather sinister with his eye patch on.

Jim also tends to describe his darker "Mirror Mirror" universe with everyone being a darker version with eye patches and goatees.

Then there is the fact that Odin was actually a rather sinister and scary god in his day. Animal and human sacrifice was common, particularly by hanging (he is often known as the Gallows God - also because he hung himself). He was also considered mad and dangerous. Thor was the god of the common folk, and while the people respected Odin it was Thor who had their hearts. Odin was the god of death, battle, victory, prophecy, magic and wisdom. Berserkers (warriors who went into psychotic rages in battle that made them feel no pain and think they were animals...often through psychedelics) prayed to him and he was known for being a fickle god who might suddenly throw his weight behind the opposite side. He was jealous, power mad and vengeful. He often tricked others and played gambits on them.

Which flies in the face of the Vadderung we know. Vadderung supposedly walked among mortals as Beowulf and created a warrior culture. He also taught the original Merlin and clearly was involved with the creation of the White Council, an organization that has on the whole probably done more good than bad for humanity. He fights against the really bad guys, against Outsiders and monsters and Fallen. He also masquerades as the jolly Kringle. Not to mention he has helped Harry a lot when he really needed it and taken out the bad guys.

So is he really a bad guy? Was everything he has done to help Harry actually to unmake the world? Is it all a big con?

My gut says no. I think it's possible he wasn't always so nice...and perhaps Harry will find out some uncomfortable truths about him. Ethniu used to respect him - which says a lot if you think about it. Perhaps he has reformed a lot too.

But then again maybe that's just sells the con further. Maybe the Grey Council is really the Black Council. Maybe it's all murky.

[The_Sibelis]

I have this old theory vadderung is actually Thor, not the original Odin per se. Trying to remember the details... The name is one, father of thunder, technically he fathered Thor, whose lightning, and lightning gives birth to thunder. I could be wrong but I don't remember Odin having a weather motif, but it storms when he shows up in CH. And indeed, Thor usually replaces his father as the all-father, least in marvel lol.

[Yuillegan]

I remember that theory. It's just that Jim said Thor is playing college football right now so it doesn't track. Not to mention Vadderung fits the Odin profile. I don't think it's odd that it storms when he shows up...I think that was literally more for atmosphere in the scene. But even if he did cause a storm, I don't think just because he isn't the god of storms doesn't mean he can't. Titania can do weather changes too etc.

[The_Sibelis]

Titania makes sense as a weather Goddess though, especially considering what Mab does to the weather.(and their combined connection to older weather Goddesses) When did Jim say he's playing college football?!? Haven't heard that one before... The thing is, when he leaves pretty sure the storm goes with him, then it's just the fog HHWB4 brings in.

[Mercutio]

He does act kinder in the Dresdenverse than he is typically shown to be in Norse mythos, but that could be from carrying Kringles Mantle assuming it wasn't his to begin with.

[Arjan]

The tales we have were already distorted by Christianity especially in how to interpret the stories. The people who wrote them down were already alien to the old way of thinking.

But the old gods were not good or evil, they were both because reality is both. The idea of an all good god is relatively new and introduced in Christianity. 

[Yuillegan]

I am not saying that Vadderung is out and out Evil. But he was far harsher, more mercurial and more frightening.

But some were viewed as pure evil, and some as purely good. It all depends on which god, which tale, what time period it originated and even when it was eventually found.

Many gods change their stripes and natures through history. Set was once the defender of Ra and a prominent god. But when the priests and religions of upper and lower Egypt clashed, the stronger cults set the story and Set became a god of chaos and storms. Often this is the way and many of those old stories about a clash between old gods and the new represent a shift in beliefs as new religions pushed out the worship of the old ones. Forever that will be the way.

I would argue that an all good is actually a pretty old idea. What has changed is the definition and values associated with being good.

Even Christianity has changed. The god of the old testament is much harsher than the god of the new.

Sibelis - I get what you're saying, but it isn't actually stated that Vadderung causes the storm. It's mostly inferred by some readers but not even necessarily implied by Jim. It also isn't strange to see God's control things outside their various domains/portfolios. I can't find the quote now but basically it says Thor plays college football and changes teams every few years (and I assume has a new identity).

 

[Arjan]

I am not saying that Vadderung is out and out Evil. But he was far harsher, more mercurial and more frightening.

But some were viewed as pure evil,

They were rarely worshipped by those who saw them as purely evil.

and some as purely good.

Maybe you can find one but I doubt it. In their stories they had all their moments.

And even being seen as good is quite different from being seen as all good.

It all depends on which god, which tale, what time period it originated and even when it was eventually found.

Many gods change their stripes and natures through history. Set was once the defender of Ra and a prominent god. But when the priests and religions of upper and lower Egypt clashed, the stronger cults set the story and Set became a god of chaos and storms. Often this is the way and many of those old stories about a clash between old gods and the new represent a shift in beliefs as new religions pushed out the worship of the old ones. Forever that will be the way.

I would argue that an all good is actually a pretty old idea. What has changed is the definition and values associated with being good.

Greek and Norse gods had specific human flaws probably because they were seen as universal flaws.

They still defended earth against monsters.

Even Christianity has changed. The god of the old testament is much harsher than the god of the new.

The god of the Old Testament is only the Christian god in the eyes of the Christians. Historically there is a break and Greek thoughts were blended with Jewish thoughts to create Christianity. It is false to say Christianity has changed, Christianity was new.

[The_Sibelis]

@Yuillegan...... You know... Everyone always harps on Jim Lies... But I've never truly believed it until just now... I think this might be an actual lie... You realize, Vadderung is described literally as looking like someone who used to play college football? Like, not just football, not just sports, but college football?!?
This just leaves me in a state of sheer disbelief, towards catching an actual possible lie...

[Bacail]

I believe that Odin is Odin.  Remember that he also holds the Mantle of Santa Claus.

"Wodan's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (compare Odin's horse Sleipnir) or his reindeer in North American tradition.[27] Folklorist Margaret Baker maintains that "the appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is the 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild, became a leading player on the Christmas stage.""

I dont think Thor could hold that mantle because it's something that is intrinsically Odin.

As for Odin looking somewhat sinister, remember that he was across the hall from Ferrovax.  In Odin's minds, i'm sure he was eyeballing that Wyrm like he wanted to cut him up and roast him on a spit. 

[ClintACK]

Odin looks "kind" because we've seen him be friendly with Harry, who we like, but remember that he's also backing Marcone, and now Lara. And the Erlking is his hunting buddy.

The "kindest" that we've seen him was in Changes, when he just flat out gave Harry the information he needed, rather than demanding payment -- but in retrospect, it looks more like he was using Harry as a cat's paw to set up the death blow of the Red Court. So it wasn't exactly charity.

Odin's on the right side, when it comes to the Outsiders, but heck, so is Nicodemus. Odin's just playing the smarter game of making Harry like him. As he says in Skin Game, it costs him nothing to be polite.

[The_Sibelis]

@bacail... see Odin holding the all-father mantle, becoming capable of using his power, losing and eye, ect.
Or if you don't prescribe to that vein, like you pointed out the second half of mythologically Odin, Santa and Merlin are tied by the same thread, so Odin wasn't even Odin to begin with technically, he was Merlin. If you argued it the other way around, I might agree, but Santa is specifically just mantle, those are made to be worn. There's even Woj he has others work for him acting in his role, though it doesn't specify with his mantle, the role itself is shared all the same. Klaus the toymaker is one of his lackey's. You can hold more than one mantle, it's what the mother's do, and part of how Jim works with the Hindu gods, who all hold multiple Mantle's.

[Gman]

Odin looks "kind" because we've seen him be friendly with Harry, who we like, but remember that he's also backing Marcone, and now Lara. And the Erlking is his hunting buddy.

The "kindest" that we've seen him was in Changes, when he just flat out gave Harry the information he needed, rather than demanding payment -- but in retrospect, it looks more like he was using Harry as a cat's paw to set up the death blow of the Red Court. So it wasn't exactly charity.



Odin's on the right side, when it comes to the Outsiders, but heck, so is Nicodemus. Odin's just playing the smarter game of making Harry like him. As he says in Skin Game, it costs him nothing to be polite.

Exactly true. Odin sees Harry as a useful tool or ally. They have in the past wanted the same things or similar done. I don't see Odin just helping Harry when the is no benefit to Odin. It would make no sense for Odin to be a jerk to Harry when Harry is getting things done for Odin. Remember, The Erlking is not nice, but was helpful and polite to Harry during the Wild Hunt fighting Outsiders. Their interests aligned.

[Arjan]

Exactly true. Odin sees Harry as a useful tool or ally. They have in the past wanted the same things or similar done. I don't see Odin just helping Harry when the is no benefit to Odin. It would make no sense for Odin to be a jerk to Harry when Harry is getting things done for Odin. Remember, The Erlking is not nice, but was helpful and polite to Harry during the Wild Hunt fighting Outsiders. Their interests aligned.

As Vadderung he is not Sidhe and he can support you just because he likes you, that is what gods did. And be fickle about it as well.

But maybe Harry can return the favor? Pagan religion is very much about giving and receiving. Sacrifices must be made. Harry can hang a few people?

[vultur]

Yeah, Odin being friendly to Harry doesn't necessarily mean that he is "nice" overall - he hires Valkyries to Lara and Marcone.

And Odin is (among other things) the god of magic and battle fury. He has reason to like Harry, even apart from a Starborn's relevance to his plans...