The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Intention vs natural operation

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vultur:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on July 21, 2020, 02:36:48 AM ---Here's where my mind is heading with this, still pretty rough: It has been theorized that TWG is just a powerful Outsider fighting all the other Outsider.
--- End quote ---

I've never liked this theory, though maybe it's just a matter of definitions.

Sure, if the Creator created Reality, then he must be from "Outside" in the sense of "not native to the created Reality". But the Outside/Inside distinction I think doesn't have any meaning until Reality exists. And at that point the Creator would be "on the side of Reality" (Inside) whereas Outsiders seem to be hostile-to-reality basically by definition.

But the general concept - that magic is on a lower, derivative level of real-ness than physical stuff - I think is probably correct.

Yuillegan:
I suspect it is more than just a matter of definitions. There seems to be a distinct "dark" feel to every single Outsider and Old One encountered so far.

TWG and his servants have a distinct "light" feel. Why would this one (TWG) be so different?

So I think you're correct Vultur in the sense he isn't part of the ordered of Created things. Even in general christian teachings God doesn't create himself as he is "eternal" as in always having existed. And I agree that Inside/Outside are meaningless unless *something* exists. Uriel even hints about this when he talks about the essential distinction between good and evil.

The real question is have the other Old Ones ever made their own Creations/Multiverses? Do they still exist?

Jim's answer about Outsiders suggests that they hate any Creation...so I guess not. Which brings us back to why is TWG different to other Old Ones if he is an Outsider himself? Should be interesting to find out

The whole thing about magic being less "real" than natural forces says to me Jim might be tying into the whole "world is an illusion" idea. Mara etc.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on July 21, 2020, 06:07:17 AM ---However, why is fire so much more effective than the other elements?

--- End quote ---
TWG is clearly based on the Christianity. The Holy Spirit is often represented by fire. That might have something to do with it. Fifth element. Love.  :). The Holy Spirit and fire are both, individually, associated with love, ironically enough.


--- Quote from: vultur on July 21, 2020, 06:20:25 AM ---I've never liked this theory, though maybe it's just a matter of definitions.

--- End quote ---
Yeah. Me either, but it does have merit. Maybe just reframe it as the WG and Outsiders are primordial beings of the same general classification. I think it's obvious that not all creatures of outside are equal to one another based on what we've been told about Outsiders, Walkers, and Old Ones, but I generally use the term Outsiders to cover anything from Outside.

knightedbishop:
I didn’t love this answer from Ebenezer. First off, it’s too vague to draw many conclusions from. Second, it goes against what Harry has said before: Effects created by magic behave just like the same effect created by mundane means. Fire summoned by magic is just fire once it’s there and subject to all the same laws of physics as normal fire. It constantly comes up in Skin Game when Harry talks about how good Ascher is with fire.

Fire laced with soul fire is something else. Fire worked into a summoning circle is something else. They are something else because there is still magic involved in infusing the fire or directing it. Maybe that’s what Ebenezer means. When Luccio and Ebenezer summon tight, extremely hot flames, they are continuing to use magic to confine and direct where it moves. By contrast, Harry pretty much shoots flame like a blowtorch and doesn’t seem to do a lot to shape its area of effect. He sometimes modifies the fire with soul fire or power from Winter’s well. I can agree that is different since magic is continuing to be invoked beyond the fire’s creation, but the vast majority of the fire we see Harry use seems identical to what comes out of a flame thrower.

I get it, Harry can be an unreliable narrator. But there’s an intrinsic coherency to his statement, which Ebenezer’s both lacks that coherency and sufficient explanation.

vultur:
Hmm, actually, here's another theory. In Changes, Harry says wizard magic is forces/energies built up around a core of will, while the kind of "crushing will" tricks that Odin and the Lords of Outer Knight/Red King use are pure will.

So maybe it's that core of will that makes magic "more fragile" than mundane things. Shoot a magical blast of fire at something that can counter your will with superior power, and the fire kind of disperses. But use a mundane flamethrower, and will isn't relevant.

As Mr. Death pointed out, it's not just an Outsider thing. The Grendelkin in Heorot is described as magic-resistant because of counter-magic (I think the Genoskwa in SG is too), and the Ogre in SK (Lord Talos) was magic-resistant due to wearing enchanted faerie armor. This is magic/will vs. magic/will.

Outsiders may have a second level of immunity to physical stuff since they are not native to Reality, as Eb says Harry as Starborn could even punch an Outsider and it would hurt them... implying a normal person couldn't.


--- Quote from: knightedbishop on July 21, 2020, 09:26:45 PM ---When Luccio and Ebenezer summon tight, extremely hot flames, they are continuing to use magic to confine and direct where it moves. By contrast, Harry pretty much shoots flame like a blowtorch and doesn’t seem to do a lot to shape its area of effect.

--- End quote ---

I think the difference is a matter of degree, not yes/no. Harry's Fuego spell is using *some* magic to control the fire after it is magically conjured, or it would spread more "randomly" rather than shooting toward his enemy; Luccio's narrow beam is just more narrowly controlled.

If he just conjured fire with no control afterwards, I think it would look more like an explosion / bonfire than a blowtorch/flamethrower jet of flame.

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