Author Topic: What if its not Thomas  (Read 6634 times)

Offline prince lotore

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
What if its not Thomas
« on: July 16, 2020, 06:06:09 PM »
we are told its Thomas but every time someone sees him there is a disclaimer that he is so messed up that they cant be sure.  what if he is a Trojan horse to get onto the island?
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body
thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a
ride!

Offline dresden11

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2020, 06:17:27 PM »
I think it was strange everyone just automatically assumed it was him.  Everyone also assumed immediately that Justine was being pressured so Thomas could do the assassination.  These are the immediate assumptions that have no basis in the story at all.  I would also point out that the Fomor have no reason at all to have caused this assassination.  The Fomor are about to kick off a war where their empress does not care if there is any infighting among the Accords.  So they have no reason to try to cause infighting.  The war is going to happen anyway. 

I have seen the idea that Eb might have messed with Thomas' mind to cause the assassination since he hates White Court and did not seem impressed with the Dwarves either.  This explanation would at least give every character clear motives. 

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24329
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2020, 06:41:15 PM »

I think Lara would know if it wasn't Thomas.

Offline Grifter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2020, 07:10:36 PM »
Yeah, she was feeding him on the boat. You think she would have known if there was something weird about his aura/power.

Offline prince lotore

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2020, 07:52:19 PM »
all im saying is that he only mumbles Justine and is badly hurt. then they say that his demon might be in control and that he isn't Thomas any more.  That makes me see a sucker punch coming. And maybe Laura is part of it
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body
thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a
ride!

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2020, 08:32:41 PM »
Shapeshifters and illusions are a thing in the DV. Normally I would expect Harry and Lara to spot an impostor, but Thomas wasn't able to converse or act normally, so they couldn't really spot inconsistencies in his behavior.

Yeah, she was feeding him on the boat. You think she would have known if there was something weird about his aura/power.

Probably, but that might depend on how good the imitation was. A good enough shapeshifter might be able to fake even that. I think only the Sight is 100% for this kind of thing.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2020, 03:41:11 AM »
The Fomor are about to kick off a war where their empress does not care if there is any infighting among the Accords.  So they have no reason to try to cause infighting.  The war is going to happen anyway.
I think they'd be thrilled with infighting. They whole point of announcing the invasion the way they did was to get them not to fight so those willing to fight got picked off one at a time.

Offline Grifter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2020, 04:00:48 AM »
I think they'd be thrilled with infighting. They whole point of announcing the invasion the way they did was to get them not to fight so those willing to fight got picked off one at a time.
It wouldn't surprise me if the ghouls were a plant to help sow doubt after the attack, to try to get everyone to follow them out and abandon the accords.  And they'll likely turn against the others during the battle.  Notice that they didn't volunteer for and jobs.

Offline Second Aristh

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3819
  • Numeromancer
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2020, 04:17:20 AM »
It wouldn't surprise me if the ghouls were a plant to help sow doubt after the attack, to try to get everyone to follow them out and abandon the accords.  And they'll likely turn against the others during the battle.  Notice that they didn't volunteer for and jobs.
In that crowd, they're the cannon fodder with little to no personal power.  Even the White Court could probably threaten them directly.  It's hard to blame them for wanting to disappear after seeing what happened to Mab.

Also, as a point of personal power, Ethniu forced Ferrovax to introduce her with sheer force of will.  Somebody on the Mab list.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4246
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2020, 04:12:46 PM »
Shapeshifters and illusions are a thing in the DV. Normally I would expect Harry and Lara to spot an impostor, but Thomas wasn't able to converse or act normally, so they couldn't really spot inconsistencies in his behavior.

Probably, but that might depend on how good the imitation was. A good enough shapeshifter might be able to fake even that. I think only the Sight is 100% for this kind of thing.

Yes, and Goodman Grey is in town and working for Harry, but he could be also be working for someone else.  However, before anyone starts to agree with that idea; as Grifter pointed out, Lara was feeding Thomas some life force energy.  A really good shapeshifter; playing a badly mauled and uncommunicative Thomas, might be able to fool even Lara but it wouldn't be able to do any White Court vampire tricks.  I don't see how Lara could feed any energy to a non-White Court vamp, unless that shapeshifter was also a type of incubus or succubus.  There's nothing to indicate the Naagloshii have that ability.

So just to be clear, I'm not seeing a fake Thomas here.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2020, 07:10:31 PM »
When the Naagloshii eat their opponents, they take their power.

Offline Grifter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2020, 07:43:46 PM »
I think the most telling thing is that Demonreach didn't consider Thomas a threat.  If he were actually a Naagloshii, Demonreach would have been like, ah, you want him in the Skinwalker wing?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2020, 07:47:03 PM »
scenario

Eb seeks out Thomas to warn Thomas off, things go bad and Thomas lets slip that Eb is his grandfather (Lara knew all along) and that he is about to be a great grandfather to another White Court Vampire. Eb is furious, he could kill Thomas outright (as he tried with Harry) but instead whammy’s Thomas to attack Etri after the Accords Truce starts with the aim of starting a war between the White Court and the Swartalves, to aid in wiping out the Whamps.

Thomas after being beaten has broken Ebs Whammy over him, his concern is for Justine and their unborn child who he rightly thinks that Eb will also try to kill because the child is a Whamp. Thomas warns Harry to protect Justine from Eb

Eb doesn’t realise that Harry knew all along about Thomas, he thought under his prejudice.  Harry must therefore die to keep the secret, leaving Maggie to Eb. Goodman Grey catches Eb trying to kill Justine and the child, probably posing as Justine, probably using his (Chekov’s) shotgun from earlier books rather than magic, so as to leave no signature.

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2020, 08:57:21 PM »
Yes, and Goodman Grey is in town and working for Harry, but he could be also be working for someone else.  However, before anyone starts to agree with that idea; as Grifter pointed out, Lara was feeding Thomas some life force energy.  A really good shapeshifter; playing a badly mauled and uncommunicative Thomas, might be able to fool even Lara but it wouldn't be able to do any White Court vampire tricks.  I don't see how Lara could feed any energy to a non-White Court vamp, unless that shapeshifter was also a type of incubus or succubus.  There's nothing to indicate the Naagloshii have that ability.

TC does imply that naagloshii feed on/gain power from fear as well as absorbing magical power from those they kill. Given that White Court vampires can switch over what emotion they feed on (Madrigal Raith switching to fear), the mechanism of naagloshii fear-feeding and White Court vampire emotion-feeding could be the same.

Also, I'm not sure we can rule out shapeshifting being good enough to imitate these sorts of supernatural traits.

I *doubt* "Thomas" in PT is a shapeshifter, but I don't think we can rule it out. Grifter is probably right that a naagloshii would have been noticed by Demonreach, but there are other possibilities. The phobophages/fetches in PG had fairly "real" forms.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4246
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: What if its not Thomas
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2020, 05:39:35 PM »
I want to take the OP and change it a bit.  I firmly believe that it's Thomas on the island and not some impostor.  However, that doesn't mean there wasn't the use of an impostor for Thomas.  (This almost deserves to be it's own thread.)  I'm sure some of you know where I'm going with this but I want to start off with some basic facts.

Evanna told Harry that cameras show Thomas making the attack, but Harry hasn't seen that video.  Harry hasn't seen the weapons the assassin used.  So much happened, but no one outside of the swartalves themselves have seen the evidence.

Harry mentions that Thomas is very good in close combat situations.  We seen that at Chichen Itza and elsewhere.  What we've also seen is that Thomas is comfortable using firearms and he is especially skilled with the use of edged weapons.  I don't recall him using explosives.  Maybe someone can find an instance when he has, something I've forgotten about, but it would be an outlier event.

The assassin starts his assault with a explosions, plural.  Perhaps as a distraction it's plausible that is something Thomas might have done.  We are not certain how the assassin tried to kill Etri, we just know the Austri put himself in the way and died as a result.  (Or at least, that's the official story.)  So what did the assassin do?  Throwing an explosive device, say a grenade, at Etri isn't really Thomas' style.  He could have shot at Etri, but whatever type of weapon was used, when Austri went down, why didn't the assassin follow up?  However the attack was made, Thomas should have had a blade of some type to follow up his initial attack.  We don't know exactly what happened after Austri died, but the assassin was quickly subdued after that because Etri didn't appear to be badly wounded.  If Thomas had gotten close to Etri, the Swartalf should have taken some nasty slashing or stab wounds but had none that Harry could see.  I find it a little too convenient that Mr. Etri wasn't killed or even badly wounded.

One other fact to mention.  Harry mentions that the swaralves allowed their anger to control them and beat Thomas to the point where he could barely speak when they should have been questioning Thomas, trying to find out why he attacked Etri and who he was in league with.  What if that wasn't an accident, what if it was part of the plan?   

So how do I picture this going down?  Thomas was sent a message to go see Evanna immediately.  The message didn't have to come from her but other than Gedwig, she's the best suspect.  Thomas needs to feed anyway so he swallows the bate and goes.  When he arrives, Thomas is jumped and beaten, or perhaps more likely, he's drugged first and then severely beaten.  The assassin is a shapeshifter.  The attack may not have even been meant to kill Etri.  The real assassin is grabbed and dragged away but it's all a show and he is quickly released.  An unconscious Thomas is shown to Etri who is told that the assassin refuses to give out any information. 

So here's my explanation of why this may have happened as I described.  This could be part of a larger game to isolate Harry.  Take out one of his most reliable and dangerous allies.  Alienate Harry from the people who currently shelter him.  Make him more vulnerable.  This could be Mab's and maybe even Lara's doing, but it could also be an Outsider / Black Council plot.  The reason I mention Lara is I don't recall her being angry or even slightly disturbed by the fact that she has to use her favors to rescue Thomas, rather than use them to accomplish some other scheme she was working on.  What doesn't fit, or at least as yet it doesn't fit, is I don't see what Lara would get out of it.  I totally understand why Mab or his Black Council enemies might want to isolate Harry.     
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx