Why, Thomas, Why? (Peace Talks Spoilers)

[The_Sibelis]

I choose to believe DR is too basic and foreign to be Nfected, to believe otherwise pretty much screws reality without recourse and seems like an easy out for nemesis that would have been tried already.

[Bad Alias]

Nemesis doesn’t need to infect mortals, their free will means they can decide to work with Nemesis of their own volition. What they probably are though are a disease vector, they can be used to infect immortals. A mortal whistles in an Outsider, and becomes infected, the mortal summons up another powerful entity, and the infection passes in its entirety to the other entity, maximum viral load all at one time. My guess is that if Nemesis is a single entity split between multiple bodies like the corner Hounds then it has a finite amount of itself and won’t waste it on the powerless or ineffectual and will seek allies where possible.

I think Nemesis can infect mortals. I also think your Hounds/Nemesis connection would be a good limiter on why Nemesis can't just infect everyone. It might work that Nemesis needs different amounts of power (viral load) to infect different hosts, so it can infect a Lady or a dozen lower powered Sidhe, for example.

[ClintACK]

[quote Me]the mind-control warlock at the start of Proven Guilty was corrupted[/quote]

Do you mean Molly?  She controlled minds that is what made her a warlock at the beginning of Proven Guilty. 

I was thinking of the nameless Korean kid who was executed for dramatic effect at the start of the book.

[Mira]

I was thinking of the nameless Korean kid who was executed for dramatic effect at the start of the book.

  Okay, I forgot him for some reason. But the same thing applies to him as to Molly.  The difference
between them there was no Harry to step in soon enough before it was too late, the power he had over others because of his talent corrupted him completely.  As it was, it was a near thing with Molly, as her back sliding demonstrates.

[The_Sibelis]

I think Nemesis can infect mortals. I also think your Hounds/Nemesis connection would be a good limiter on why Nemesis can't just infect everyone. It might work that Nemesis needs different amounts of power (viral load) to infect different hosts, so it can infect a Lady or a dozen lower powered Sidhe, for example.

idk, likely Nemesis can come and go in those already compromised,like, they're tainted but not under direct influence or overpowered. I originally thought this from the scene in PG where mouse growls at molly but then just looks confused, Nemesis saw a foo dog and ran like a mofo, after reading zoo day I could see why, Mouse could chase it back to where it lives. That makes him a rather dangerous threat.

[riff.freelance]

I'm finishing my reread (that I failed to complete before Peace Talks) and in Cold Days right now... I'll know for sure tonight of maybe tomorrow... BUT Cait Sith, Thomas owes him a favor. And did he die, or just get knocked into the lake? How many people are explicitly told about the cat's Nfection? Could we be missing something there? Just a thought I had at the debt incurred scene, and wanted to put up before I finished Cold Days. 

[ClintACK]

I'm finishing my reread (that I failed to complete before Peace Talks) and in Cold Days right now... I'll know for sure tonight of maybe tomorrow... BUT Cait Sith, Thomas owes him a favor. And did he die, or just get knocked into the lake? How many people are explicitly told about the cat's Nfection? Could we be missing something there? Just a thought I had at the debt incurred scene, and wanted to put up before I finished Cold Days.

Ooh. And Cait Sith would absolutely threaten to do awful things to Justine and the baby if the favor isn't returned.

[Grifter]

Ooh. And Cait Sith would absolutely threaten to do awful things to Justine and the baby if the favor isn't returned.

Especially since Maeve had all her fae abilities but could break the rules. Meaning Sith could enter their domicile and possibly break guest law.

[Bad Alias]

idk, likely Nemesis can come and go in those already compromised,like, they're tainted but not under direct influence or overpowered. I originally thought this from the scene in PG where mouse growls at molly but then just looks confused, Nemesis saw a foo dog and ran like a mofo, after reading zoo day I could see why, Mouse could chase it back to where it lives. That makes him a rather dangerous threat.

I think it's a big assumption that Molly is infected.

I'm finishing my reread (that I failed to complete before Peace Talks) and in Cold Days right now... I'll know for sure tonight of maybe tomorrow... BUT Cait Sith, Thomas owes him a favor. And did he die, or just get knocked into the lake? How many people are explicitly told about the cat's Nfection? Could we be missing something there? Just a thought I had at the debt incurred scene, and wanted to put up before I finished Cold Days.

It was a small favor.

[The_Sibelis]

I think it's a big assumption that Molly is infected.
It was a small favor.

I think it's a very small assumption, warlocks are quite literally replaced by inhuman beings, there's a plot, if not against her(although the case can and has been made for that) then certainly to save her in PG. She's told to use fear while violating free will and Leah changes how she operates by showing her the fae way of using fear without violating the laws, which leads her to become a better candidate for winter lady. Then we have fearbringer who manifests itself from the supernatural fear Molly specifically has caused or fed. It having the functional form of the scarecrow, his height, while wearing what amounts to the ragged cloth described in GS as what is left of Harry's duster which she used as her calling card earning her the name rag lady. I personally think it's a big assumption to think she's not, or that quite clearly more is not going on there then explicitly said.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Plus Eb. Harry shows up to look for someone keeping an eye on Justine. He spends an hour and a half looking for magical surveillance, finds nothing, and then has Eb decloak at his rear and call him an idiot for not spotting him.

Eb has a plausible explanation for why he's there, but he's also perfectly capable of hiding himself from Harry (as he did) and if it had been any other wizard veiled near Justine's place he would have jumped to the top of the list.

Alternative theory: The White Council was spying on Justine, which means Martha Liberty's spy network and scrying spells way, way too subtle for Harry to spot them. And it probably means Liberty alerted Eb to his former apprentice skulking around at Justine's place.

No he doesn't.  We know Justine's place is a good place to look for Harry because we've read all the books.  Ebenezer shouldn't have a clue about Justine or where she lives, unless.  Think through the books and how Eb has learned about Thomas. 

Ebenezer probably knows nothing about Thomas being at Bianca's party or that Thomas helped Harry after Duke Ortega tried to cheat during the duel at Wrigley Field.  But Ebenezer hears rumors that Harry has been seen in the company of a White Court vampire.  Harry directly intervenes in White Court vampire politics, which seems to help Lord Raith.  We can't know if the White Council has figured out that Lara Raith is really in charge and that her dad is now just her puppet, though at some point they probably figure it out.  From Captain Luccio, if not before, Eb learns the White Court Vampire Harry is seen hanging out with is Thomas Raith.  From Listens to Winds, Ebenezer finds out Harry fought a naagloshii in order to return Thomas to his people.  Finally, Ebenezer sees Thomas fighting alongside Harry and his other allies at Chichen Itza.  After Harry seemingly returns from the dead, Eb might have heard that Harry was again seen with Thomas.

In the past eight or nine years Ebenezer has visited Harry in Chicago twice.  The first time Eb visited to help hunt down Mavra and the second time Eb and Harry had dinner after... I don't even remember which book any longer.  (Small Favor or Turn Coat?)  It's unlikely that Ebenezer knew about Thomas the first time because he would have said something about Thomas, especially after Eb told Harry that Lord Raith had killed Harry's mother.  I think it's also unlikely Ebenezer said anything during their off camera dinner together.  Harry would have said that Ebenezer was repeating himself, that Eb had said this the last time they had dinner together, but Harry didn't.  So all of this means that Ebenezer McCoy has been doing some deep research on Thomas Raith, or having someone else do it for him.

Also, Harry would have spotted any wizard hiding under a veil.  Harry spotted Mavra at Bianca's when he was much younger, and you have to assume that Mavra is probably one of the best there is at veils because her continued existence depends on it.  So that means Ebenezer was likely watching Harry doing his search the entire time and only revealed himself when he realized Harry was about to use his Sight and would spot him.  Why?  I mean why didn't Ebenezer reveal himself earlier, unless he didn't want Harry to know he was there at all.   

Now I want to point out something no one else seems to have mentioned.  Harry asked himself why Thomas attacked Etri.  (Assuming it was Thomas and not something complicated; like Austri was mind whammied into attacking his boss and Thomas was actually defending Etri by killing Austri.  Normally Occam's Razor would rule something like this out, but at least half the damn book is missing so who knows what new clues will turn up in the first few chapters of Battle Ground.)  Evanna said, "Well Raith?  Do you have anything to say?"  OK, she could be acting, but at least she's acting like she and her people have been wronged.  Justine asked "Why? Why Harry?  I don't understand why he would do that."  Lara said, "Thomas couldn't have screwed this up any harder if he'd had a year to plan it."  That statement is a bit vague, but what does Lara stand to gain by attacking Etri?  Again, maybe we'll find out something in Battle Ground, but right now it doesn't make sense.  You know who doesn't ask "Why Thomas?" or anything similar?  Ebenezer and the wardens.  It's almost as if they don't need to ask any questions because they already know, or at least one of them does. 

Finally, Harry says that Carlos and the Council will, "...want to meet about the ramifications of an apparent assassination attempt by the White Court on Etri..."  Except that doesn't happen.  Ebenezer flat out tells Harry that Thomas is going down for the killing.  There's no political discussion or what it means for the talks.  Carlos and the other wardens think Harry has been turned by Lara so at least their behavior makes some sense.   

So what I'm left with is that either Ebenzer is responsible for Thomas' action or he knows who is; maybe Cat Sith, and has decided this is a great way to get rid of Thomas.     

[Mira]

No he doesn't.  We know Justine's place is a good place to look for Harry because we've read all the books.  Ebenezer shouldn't have a clue about Justine or where she lives, unless.  Think through the books and how Eb has learned about Thomas.

Ebenezer probably knows nothing about Thomas being at Bianca's party or that Thomas helped Harry after Duke Ortega tried to cheat during the duel at Wrigley Field.  But Ebenezer hears rumors that Harry has been seen in the company of a White Court vampire.  Harry directly intervenes in White Court vampire politics, which seems to help Lord Raith.  We can't know if the White Council has figured out that Lara Raith is really in charge and that her dad is now just her puppet, though at some point they probably figure it out.  From Captain Luccio, if not before, Eb learns the White Court Vampire Harry is seen hanging out with is Thomas Raith.  From Listens to Winds, Ebenezer finds out Harry fought a naagloshii in order to return Thomas to his people.  Finally, Ebenezer sees Thomas fighting alongside Harry and his other allies at Chichen Itza.  After Harry seemingly returns from the dead, Eb might have heard that Harry was again seen with Thomas.

In the past eight or nine years Ebenezer has visited Harry in Chicago twice.  The first time Eb visited to help hunt down Mavra and the second time Eb and Harry had dinner after... I don't even remember which book any longer.  (Small Favor or Turn Coat?)  It's unlikely that Ebenezer knew about Thomas the first time because he would have said something about Thomas, especially after Eb told Harry that Lord Raith had killed Harry's mother.  I think it's also unlikely Ebenezer said anything during their off camera dinner together.  Harry would have said that Ebenezer was repeating himself, that Eb had said this the last time they had dinner together, but Harry didn't.  So all of this means that Ebenezer McCoy has been doing some deep research on Thomas Raith, or having someone else do it for him.

Or his past trauma has so prejudiced him that Eb is in capable of being open to the idea that anyone or thing connected with the White Court is less than evil.  He has put his fingers in his ears singing "
la..la..la..  I find it a bit shocking that he blinded himself to the idea that Margaret and Raith may have had relations..

Now I want to point out something no one else seems to have mentioned.  Harry asked himself why Thomas attacked Etri.  (Assuming it was Thomas and not something complicated; like Austri was mind whammied into attacking his boss and Thomas was actually defending Etri by killing Austri.  Normally Occam's Razor would rule something like this out, but at least half the damn book is missing so who knows what new clues will turn up in the first few chapters of Battle Ground.)  Evanna said, "Well Raith?  Do you have anything to say?"  OK, she could be acting, but at least she's acting like she and her people have been wronged.  Justine asked "Why? Why Harry?  I don't understand why he would do that."  Lara said, "Thomas couldn't have screwed this up any harder if he'd had a year to plan it."  That statement is a bit vague, but what does Lara stand to gain by attacking Etri?  Again, maybe we'll find out something in Battle Ground, but right now it doesn't make sense.  You know who doesn't ask "Why Thomas?" or anything similar?  Ebenezer and the wardens.  It's almost as if they don't need to ask any questions because they already know, or at least one of them does.

Hopefully we will get some answers because none of it makes any sense, unless it was a diversion of some sort to throw those who might get wise, i.e. Harry, the Wardens, the Stavaelves to something very irregular about the up and coming talks off. 

Finally, Harry says that Carlos and the Council will, "...want to meet about the ramifications of an apparent assassination attempt by the White Court on Etri..."  Except that doesn't happen.  Ebenezer flat out tells Harry that Thomas is going down for the killing.  There's no political discussion or what it means for the talks.  Carlos and the other wardens think Harry has been turned by Lara so at least their behavior makes some sense.   

Or why weren't we privy to the "security meeting" held the night before the talks.  Who was going to what whom?  Was there any more push back against Harry?  Instead, we are told it was boring security routine type thing... Really?  After an assassination attempt on one of the members?

[morriswalters]

I think it's a very small assumption, warlocks are quite literally replaced by inhuman beings, there's a plot, if not against her(although the case can and has been made for that) then certainly to save her in PG. She's told to use fear while violating free will and Leah changes how she operates by showing her the fae way of using fear without violating the laws, which leads her to become a better candidate for winter lady. Then we have fearbringer who manifests itself from the supernatural fear Molly specifically has caused or fed. It having the functional form of the scarecrow, his height, while wearing what amounts to the ragged cloth described in GS as what is left of Harry's duster which she used as her calling card earning her the name rag lady. I personally think it's a big assumption to think she's not, or that quite clearly more is not going on there then explicitly said.

There is a plot in Proven Guilty to kill Harry, Molly was a tool to further that plot, if it had been successful she and Harry would have died. Michael raises this idea at the end.  And for what it's worth the idea is reinforced by Eb.

“The past few years have shown them that you aren’t someone who is easily removed the direct way. They’re going to start trying alternate methods.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 30). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

If that was true there was no reason to Nemfect Molly. And by implication if Harry is a mortal who is immune to the taint of Nemesis then all mortals are at risk, since they aren't Starborn.

If you want to theorize about why, what has anyone got that would threaten Justine that Thomas couldn't deal with by going to his brother? On the other hand what would Thomas do if someone showed him a way to keep Justine alive from the one threat he can't fight?  What was Lara's first favor?

[The_Sibelis]

@morris Your argument is counter intuitive, if they just now figured out Harry won't be directly killed then why some crazy plot to get the job done in PG?
You assume Nemfecting Molly was a plot vs harry, it was a plot against Molly too. Way too many Molly clues for her importance, Leah asking about Michael's first born being one part of that.

[morriswalters]

“Only that it is entirely possible, Harry Dresden, that this entire affair, beginning to end, is meant to protect you. That when I went to the aid of Luccio and her trainees, I did so not to free Molly, but to prevent you from coming to blows with the Council. That her position as your new apprentice had less to do with protecting her than it did protecting you?”

When viewed through this lens it all makes sense.  It answers all the mysteries except who fixed LC.  Molly was never Nemfected.  Harry is saved from death twice. First from LC and second from the Council at the trial.

To figure out what is going on with Thomas you first have to consider what the plot of Peace Talks is about.  Thomas makes two different points early when talking to Harry.  He hates what he is and he is afraid Justine will die.

“Sometimes,” Thomas said, “I hate what I am. I hate being me.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 4). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

“I don’t know what to do,” Thomas said. “If I lose her . . .”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 2). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

So what would you do if someone offered you a way out?

He nodded. “Probably. I have a solution in mind,” he said. “I’ll work on it. Good enough?”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 4). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

All within Chapter One.