McCoy and Bob

[Arjan]

Ebenezer must have been involved in the hunt for Kemmler and his final killing. He was alive then and a powerful wizard.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Bob could know McCoy's style from seeing him in action from a distance.  He doesn't have to have met either Ebenezer or his daughter, though the possibility that he met one or the other exists.  What argues against this is most wizards; and I assume Kemler would be no different in this regard, are going to try to keep Bob under wraps which should limit his ability to see another wizard in action.

I believe Jim was showing us that Evil Bob; and by extension our Bob, is not the top tier operator the skull thinks he is.  They both overate their own abilities.  The air spirit was created to be a flunky and he; now they, can't overcome the limitations that are an integral part of their being.  Bob has difficulty grasping morality and how it works or should work.  Evil Bob drops a name he shouldn't have dropped.  His arrogance doesn't allow him to see that one day Harry will recall that conversation and start to ask questions.  Evil Bob's arrogance and inability to understand how a person's morals or conscience can inform their decision making is driven home when he offers Harry an alliance; with Evil Bob as the senior partner, when a top tier villain would know that Harry can't be bent, or not bent without serious coercion or deception.

When Marcone and Nicodemus first met Harry they offered to buy him off, but after trying a couple of times they both realized that simple methods of bribery or threatening Harry's life aren't going to do it.  If Evil Bob was a smart as he thinks he is, he should have known enough about Harry to understand that offering him an apprenticeship (of sorts) wasn't going to work.     

[Yuillegan]

Kurtin, I think you're basically right about what Jim was up to.

It is of course also possible that Bob (in-Universe) and by extension Evil Bob, know McCoy's style via some minor interaction or passing information. But that doesn't explain why that scene happens, why that line was written. And you're dead right about Bob being the kind of thing you don't want to use too openly. Bob's real use (and Evil Bob's) is their use as a research assistant. A Wizard's version of a database and a computer and lab assistant in one. You could use it as an assassin or enforcer etc. But that would be under-utilizing his potential. Corpsetaker was always so overt and wasteful, and it showed particularly in that all she wanted Evil Bob for was as a lackey. Cowl showed the real potential of Bob, which is what Kemmler would have as well. It's no wonder Evil Bob barely respected Corpsetaker.

I think it's particularly hard for a spirit that doesn't really get the definition or distinction between good and evil, to know how to really manipulate a human. Nic and Marcone are much better in some ways of understanding how best to use Harry (although I would argue Lara is close). Mab is good at strategy and using pressure and set-ups to control Harry. But her understanding of humans and their psychology limits how effectively she can control Harry or anticipate him...which is often how he gets the best of such beings. It's the humans who often get the best of Harry, because they understand what monsters and the non-humans can't: people are who they are and you have to work with that if you want to change them.

Arjan - I think what you're saying is that because Eb was on the original hunt for Kemmler, it's likely Evil Bob would have seen him then. That's definitely possible...but why did Jim write that line? Why signal to the reader that Evil Bob knew McCoy's work? It's a deliberate sentence.

Mira - Evil Bob could be wrong or have lied. But forget the in-universe reasons and examine the literary ones. Why is that sentence there? Why draw attention to Ebenezar? What purpose does it serve?

Walter the skull - In-universe, I think that's quite possible. It's even possible that Eb and Kemmler knew each other. But it doesn't just seem like Jim wrote the line to add a dot of flavor in the sentence. The scene is already interesting. The sentence doesn't need that information to function. He could easily have written "A simple tool, but serviceable. In Merlin's style" and everyone would be freaking out. Because we would be like, what does Evil Bob know about Merlin? What's the connection between Harry, Merlin and Ebenezar? He could have used Kemmler's name or any other, but he went with McCoy. That's significant. He wants to leave a bread crumb. But it's up to us to follow it.

[Arjan]

Arjan - I think what you're saying is that because Eb was on the original hunt for Kemmler, it's likely Evil Bob would have seen him then. That's definitely possible...but why did Jim write that line? Why signal to the reader that Evil Bob knew McCoy's work? It's a deliberate sentence.

And Kemmler might have gathered information about his enemies. If so Eb would certainly got his attention an Bob would have helped.

The sentence is there to show you that the world is bigger than Harry and everyone around him has a history with each other he is not aware of. Maybe to warn him that Eb would recognise Bob immediately and he would certainly have strong opinions about him.

Those histories are important and motivate their actions. Harry is dangerously ignorant.

[Mira]

  Everyone is beating me to the punch this morning, no coffee yet.. But what Arjan said.

[Yuillegan]

Arjan, I agree with you there. Harry is dangerously ignorant. But I don't agree that the sentence is signalling that Eb would recognise Bob immediately. That might be true anyway but I believe that there is more to it.

As I said to Walter, Evil Bob could have mentioned any character who makes wizard staffs. He could have mentioned Justin's handiwork. He could have mentioned a famous wizard like the original Merlin, or Kemmler. But Jim wanted to highlight the connection between McCoy and Evil Bob. So I think it's foreshadowing of a reveal - perhaps that McCoy and Evil Bob have worked together. I don't see how or why Evil Bob was saying that as a a warning...

[Arjan]

Arjan, I agree with you there. Harry is dangerously ignorant. But I don't agree that the sentence is signalling that Eb would recognise Bob immediately. That might be true anyway but I believe that there is more to it.

As I said to Walter, Evil Bob could have mentioned any character who makes wizard staffs. He could have mentioned Justin's handiwork. He could have mentioned a famous wizard like the original Merlin, or Kemmler. But Jim wanted to highlight the connection between McCoy and Evil Bob. So I think it's foreshadowing of a reveal - perhaps that McCoy and Evil Bob have worked together. I don't see how or why Evil Bob was saying that as a a warning...

Lucio knew about Bob, Justin certainly knew about Bob. I think most senior wizards know about Bob and they get a collective fit if they learn about Harry and Bob.

[Mira]

Lucio knew about Bob, Justin certainly knew about Bob. I think most senior wizards know about Bob and they get a collective fit if they learn about Harry and Bob.

Oh yeah, so what else is new?  Wait till they find out about the baby of his brain.  It also figures if they knew about Bob, Bob knows about them..

[apgrey]

  There is a lot we don't know about Bob.
  Bob was used by Kemmler for about 100 years, up until Kemmler's death in 1961.  We don't know who had Bob before then, so Bob could have met Ebenezar then.
  Also, as the Blackstaff, Ebenezar would have been sent after Kemmler.  There might have been several confrontations between them that ended with one of them escaping the other.  Kemmler might have captured one of Ebenezar's staffs, and given it to Bob for study.
  It would have made sense for Kemmler to order Bob to learn as much as he could about Ebenezar.  He would wanted any possible information about one of his most dangerous opponents.

APG

[EBRIEN]

Do we have a definitive date of when Kemmler first appears on the scene? I know we have references, but was he someone else prior to Kemmler? Body switch? Was he a WC player before he was the bad guy?

If we follow the "Harry is betrayed by McCoy" line of thinking, maybe Eb's been in league with the Black Council for centuries and the reason Bob knows the work of McCoy is a lot more insidious. We know McCoy knows about Bob. Maybe he KNOWS about Bob in the sense that he possessed him prior to Kemmler.

I don't know. Ugh.

Dresden Spoilers, thy name is rabbit hole.

[EBRIEN]

Do we have a definitive date of when Kemmler first appears on the scene? I know we have references, but was he someone else prior to Kemmler? Body switch? Was he a WC player before he was the bad guy?

If we follow the "Harry is betrayed by McCoy" line of thinking, maybe Eb's been in league with the Black Council for centuries and the reason Bob knows the work of McCoy is a lot more insidious. We know McCoy knows about Bob. Maybe he KNOWS about Bob in the sense that he possessed him prior to Kemmler.

I don't know. Ugh.

Dresden Spoilers, thy name is rabbit hole.

Scratch that...reverse it. lol

[Yuillegan]

Indeed it is a rabbit hole.

EBRIEN - I think there isn't one but there are a few references. The earliest appearance is in Fistful of Warlocks, but he was already on the scene and openly bad. My guess is he was White Council before this. He may also be the same person as Heinrich Kramer (a witch-hunter and inquisitor in the 1400s who was most famously known for writing the Malleus Maleficarum - the Hammer of the Witches). In which case he was already several hundred years old by the time he met Luccio in Fistful of Warlocks. According to Bob, he was responsible for WW1 and put about 150 years of engineering into it which puts him operating at 1765 ish. So he would have at least had to be a young man then even if he isn't Kramer. One fan speculated (and was half confirmed by Jim) that he might have also been responsible for the Spanish Flu.

APGrey - he at least had Bob for 150 years. Which might contradict something, but that's the Dresden Files for you.

I would direct your thinking to not be so in-universe. Why does Jim highlight the connection, in your opinion?

Arjan - Yeah I agree they knew about each other. Luccio may have heard of or read about Bob. She doesn't act like she encountered him. But even if she did, it's hardly the same as Bob being aware of her magical style. Bob certainly doesn't act like he has a connection with her when Harry first talks about her in Dead Beat. Evil Bob makes particular not of Harry's style of Wizard staff. This also implies that he knows Ebenezar's style of staff well. Which suggests at the very least that he has observed or worked with McCoy. Why would McCoy hide that? And why wouldn't regular Bob mention it? It's Jim laying the foundation for a sucker punch. I don't know what form it will take but there will be another reveal.

Think about it from the perspective if Evil Bob had said "A simple tool, but effective. In the style of Merlin" or "A simple tool, but effective. In the style of Kemmler" would have sent the forums into meltdown with theories. But he signals the connection to McCoy instead. That's for a reason.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I keep thinking about the way Ebenezer referred to Justin in Blood Rites.  He called him "that bastard Du Morne."  That level of hatred implies there may have once been a relationship; an alliance, a way of thinking about the world or even a friendship, that existed at one time between Ebenezer and Justin, but was destroyed, most likely by Justin. 

In this version of events, Ebenezer is in a similar position to the one Kinkade put him in.  Justin did something that was unforgivable, but Eb didn't realize the depth of Justin DuMorne's betrayal until he had a meeting with him and at that meeting Bob and Eb saw each other up close.  Of course, I could spin this scenario in multiple directions.  For a time Eb believed Justin had tamed Bob and was using him in a benign way; at least for a while, or Eb and Justin were working together and Ebenezer watched how Evil Bob and Justin worked together and believed Kemmler's influence was spreading from Kemmler to Bob to Justin. 

Then again, I could also speculate that Ebenezer is hiding something from Harry and perhaps even from the White Council.  Just as many of us speculate that Harry may have to one day free an inmate or two from Demonreach in order to take on a larger threat, it's possible Ebenezer had to work with Evil Bob; probably along with Justin DuMorne, in order to deal with something he couldn't handle by himself.  Plus, I haven't even touched the Ebenezer has an evil agenda of his own and Evil Bob is or was a part of that plan, scenarios.

There's something there, we just don't have enough information to make a solid guess at what it is. 

[Bad Alias]

[1]So can anyone explain to me why Jim would have Evil Bob name drop McCoy? What purpose does it serve in the scene and the greater story?

[2]Often Jim puts things in scene's which Harry completely ignores or misses. A perfect example is in Chapter 2 where McCoy hints at the true meaning of curse phrase "Stars and Stones" and Harry just snarks back and doesn't bother to uncover it. He is extraordinarily short-sighted still sometimes. [3]But the series is full of them.

1. Other than your theory of McCoy worked with Evil Bob as Evil Bob, something along the lines of Kurtin's reasoning, and Arjan's thoughts about a larger world and laying the ground work for a confrontation with Eb*, my best guess is it could just be a misdirect. I doubt that because I can't think of any misdirects like that. Most of our misdirects are from characters wrongly explaining how the world works, drawing conclusions when we know their reasoning is inductive rather than deductive, or someone just outright lying to Harry.

3 does something to explain 2. There are so many things Harry doesn't know. The Doylist reason he doesn't chase them all down to there conclusion is that he's going to learn the answer "on screen." The Watsonian answer could be that he chases most of them down to a dead end. Others he doesn't chase down because of time constraints. Some he doesn't chase down because he fears the answers. And some he doesn't chase down because he forgets because there are so many. I'd appreciate some in text explanation for a few more of examples of any of these Watsonian answers for these mysteries he should obviously looking into if for no other reason than we can good reason to believe that Harry isn't just being an idiot.

It's the humans who often get the best of Harry, because they understand what monsters and the non-humans can't: people are who they are and you have to work with that if you want to change them.

Humans are probably the most malleable creatures in the DF. I'd say it's that they don't understand (some) human motivations. It's kind of like Harry says about demons in GP. The demons understand lust, greed, anger, etc. They don't understand "good" emotions, so they don't know how to appeal to our "better angels."

  There is a lot we don't know about Bob.

Does anyone else get the impression that Bob's been around a lot longer than the time frame we've been told/led to believe? From the timeline:

c 1400: Bob seduces shepherdesses! Neurovore notes that Bob claims to have “about six hundred years worth of memories to sort through in here” [BR 219], which suggests his origin is somewhere in the late fourteenth or early fifteenth century.
...
~1920: Kemmler acquires a certain spirit of air and intellect, bound to a human skull. Bob works for Kemmler about 40 years before. [DB ch 3–thanks to neurovore]

Bob talks like he's been through a lot of wizards. Could this just be that there's a high turnover rate for possession of Bob? Kemmler had him for 40 to a 100 (150?) years. Justin had him for 20 to 30 by my guess. Harry had him 20 years at most.

[1]According to Bob, he was responsible for WW1 and put about 150 years of engineering into it which puts him operating at 1765 ish. ...

[2]APGrey - he at least had Bob for 150 years. Which might contradict something, but that's the Dresden Files for you.

...[3]Luccio may have heard of or read about Bob. She doesn't act like she encountered him. ...
[4]And why wouldn't regular Bob mention [working with McCoy]?

1. Which would have put Kemmler on the outs with the Council for meddling with politics if he was a member in good standing at that point.

2. How do you get 150 years? Was it 150 years of memories? I remember it as 100, but I haven't looked it up.

3. From what Luccio said, she knows about thing Bob did. I think the quote is something about the horrible or terrifying things the spirit was capable of.

4. Because regular Bob doesn't remember. ... Dun dun dun!

I keep thinking about the way Ebenezer referred to Justin in Blood Rites.  He called him "that bastard Du Morne."  That level of hatred implies there may have once been a relationship; an alliance, a way of thinking about the world or even a friendship, that existed at one time between Ebenezer and Justin, but was destroyed, most likely by Justin.

It just could be that DuMorne abused his grandson.

*From Peace Talks

(click to show/hide)

With Butters having Bob and the confrontation with Eb we got, I doubt that part of the reasoning now.

[Second Aristh]

Didn't Eb write a beginner book on evocation magic that all the little wizards read as part of their apprenticeship?  At least in normal times?  "McCoy style" isn't that big of a deal to notice if he's had a hand in teaching a bunch of wizards.