Author Topic: Traitors  (Read 3986 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Traitors
« on: February 08, 2020, 03:03:32 AM »
In Turn Coat, Murphy says to Dresden that one of the reasons treachery is so reviled is that it often comes from someone you never would suspect.

Jim recently has also said that there are some characters who appear to be good and are not necessarily, and some who appear to be bad who are not necessarily.

With that in mind lets examine a few.


1. Listens-to-Wind.
Because he seems to be a good guy, he makes a perfect candidate for a twist. He also happens to have fought an almost pure evil being in the presence of Harry. Makes his motives seem ultimately good. And he is a good friend of Ebenezar, who is a long-time Dresden ally.

But let us look a little deeper. In Turn Coat he says to Harry in Edinburgh:
Quote
“Once, I watched the tribe I was expected to guide and protect be destroyed, Harry Dresden. I did so because my principles held that it was wrong for the Council or its members to involve itself in manipulating the politics of mortals. I watched and restrained myself, until it was too late for me to make a difference. When I did that, I chose who would live and who would die. My people died for my principles.” He shook his head. “I will not make that mistake again.”
He is overtly saying that he won't allow his principles (that an innocent man shouldn't be hung out to dry) to potentially cause the end of the White Council. However he could also be saying that he believes, (interestingly like Simon Pietrovich did/does) that the White Council SHOULD be involved in mortal politics and direct the course of history.

Eb also goes on to say how he has had to deal with terrible anger against the invading British pre-Americans and the massacre of his people. However, what if Eb is wrong? What if Listens-to-Wind is actually still very deeply angry over it? He and Eb also have an interesting argument on Demonreach:

Quote
Listen-to-Wind’s voice became hard and rough, holding a deep and burning anger that I had never heard from the old man before. “There is the world that should be,” he growled, “and the world that is. We live in one.”
“And must create the other,” Ebenezar retorted, “if it is ever to be.”
Listens-to-Wind looked down and shook his head. He looked very old and very tired. “There are no good paths to choose, old friend,” he said quietly. “All we can do is choose if many die, or a few.”

That to me speaks of someone who might just be a bit more cynical than Eb (which is saying a lot) and might not be so at ease with the way things are, or the way they are going.

I am not saying necessarily that he has betrayed the Council at this point (although...Naagloshii first shows up here, and despite their differences in cultures, what if the fight between them wasn't as real as Harry assumes it was?) But he might end up betraying it. If he was offered a better Council, a better world he just might take it. And it would make for a real blow to Eb.

2. Rashid - the Gatekeeper
Rashid makes a compelling candidate because he also appears to be on Harry's side, although up until the end of this book more than a little suspicious of him. He also seems rather central to the fight against the Outsiders...and so if he betrays everyone that would be pretty bad. He does seem to believe that not only will Harry challenge the White Council, but that he actually SHOULD challenge them and win. That is very New World Order type thinking, whatever his reasons. He would make for a challenging foe as he his magic is strange and unusual, and he has incredible foreknowledge. Even the Merlin respects him, more than perhaps any of the other wizards. He also is quite possibly the oldest wizard, maybe the oldest human alive (although we must acknowledge that at the very least time-shift shenanigans have probably aided that, perhaps even outright Time Travel). Who knows he may have even crossed into other Universes. In any case, he might not be the good guy we are led to believe.

3. Ebenezar
This is the hard one, and in my opinion would hurt the most. He has the license to break the Laws and is THE combat wizard. He also is a top-level good guy, so it would be a real sucker punch. Worst of all, he is Harry's mentor and grandfather. I cannot imagine a more painful betrayal, except maybe Harry's own parents. BUT. He also created the Gray Council...to hunt himself then. Why fill it with top-tier warriors? And why would he fight at Chichen Itza? Even to save his own life, it wouldn't be enough. And he is strongly allied with Vadderung, and I don't see him pulling the wool over his eye. Still though, it would suck. And he almost certainly was being recruited to this new force/Circle/Black Council by Margaret LaFey...maybe he did actually join.

4. Elaine Mallory
Almost certainly some sort of villain, but maybe not in the new force. We expect a betrayal, but it what form who knows. My money is still on her being Kumori, but even if she isn't she might still be in the Circle/new force. She also has betrayed Harry twice, and Dresden has a habit of falling for the same trick (especially when it comes to women, even more so when they are women he has/had feelings for). My money is she is a finely controlled thrall and when things really start getting revealed we will see who she is and what she has been up to. And we know Harry will hate it.

5. Leansidhe
This is tricky, because it depends how you see her. She was certainly more of an antagonist in the early series than now. She quite likely knows what Maggie was up to, and may well have been involved. However she does seem to protect Harry, and most of her interests seem to be self-motivated more than simply bringing down the house. But she does seem very weirdly connected to a lot of the bad guys, and one wonders just how much she is keeping from Harry.

6. Lara Raith
Not a good guy. But also a sometimes ally. Definitely looking out for number one, she will do whatever it takes to remain powerful and survive the coming disasters (including killing busybody wizards with attitude problems). Don't think she is on the Circle, but might end up there. However she definitely has been fighting against them at a few points, so maybe not. She is a growing threat that probably will be much more of a worry if left alone...yet like Mab might be a necessary evil. But wouldn't surprise me to see her betray Harry and the White Council for more power. She goes on a very interesting speech in Turn Coat:
Quote
Contrary to your own perceptions, the world is a great deal larger than the White Council of Wizardry. You aren’t a vital body in today’s world. You’re a sad little collection of self-deluded has-beens whose self-righteous prattle has always taken second place to its hypocritical practice.”
...
“You think you can simply walk into my home and issue commands and threats as it pleases you? The world is changing, Wardens. The Council isn’t changing with it. It’s only a matter of time before it collapses under its own obsolescent weight. This kind of high-handed arrogance will only-

Curiously, Cowl said much the same about the Council during Dead Beat. He believed the Council hadn't adapted to the times and would soon collapse. I don't believe she was merely referring to the speed of mortal invention increasing, she was referring to the changing of the supernatural world.

7. Margaret LaFey
Almost certainly did some stuff Harry will find repellent, and allied with people he would find awful. I mean, she had a child with Lord Raith...that's pretty bad right there. Probably gave Harry a really traumatic legacy that is the main reason his life has been so hard and horrible. This one is inevitable, but what she did and why are mysteries.

Honorable Mentions - Kincaid and Marcone
Both of these dangerous pragmatists clearly have mysterious pasts and secrets, and are not enemies of Dresden mostly but not quite allies in the truest sense. They mostly work for themselves, and almost all of what they do seems to tie into looking out for number one. I think Kincaids origins and past will shock and disturb Harry, as will Marcone's. And I think a show down between Harry and Marcone seems inevitable, but I am not so certain Harry will win.

Characters who are have been suspected of treachery and probably are not traitors:

The Merlin - Arthur Langtry
An antagonist in the series, but probably not Black Council. He already leads one Council, he doesn't need another. He also is mostly responsible for establishing the current balance of power in the supernatural world. He doesn't want to threaten the status quo. A dick he may be, but he isn't a black-hearted monster almost certainly. And too obvious if he did betray Harry, no real emotional pay off. Listens-to-Wind believes that if he falls, so does the White Council. Which almost certainly is foreshadowing.

Molly
Already had her darkside moment, she is Winter Lady now. Unless she gets nemfected, probably not.

Ancient Mai
Like the Merlin, too obvious. Mostly she seems harsh, rigid and cold. She is 400 and has probably seen enough bad times to warrant harsh measures in good times.

Anyone else you guys can think of?


Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2020, 08:35:24 AM »
Cowl.  Seems like a deluded and possibly insane tool of Nemesis.  Thinks he can survive the Outsider's New Worlds Order if he can make himself into a god, or someone with god like powers.  What if he thinks he needs these powers to keep the Outsiders from destroying everything.  He believes that Nemesis can't be completely stopped.  So the solution is control how they enter our world and find a way to permanently keep them for devouring everything.  If that were the case and Cowl realizes his plan won't work, he might eventually see no other choice is left than to throw in with Dresden.

Kumori.  She believes Cowl's true goal is to put an end to death.  She studies necromancy in order to help fulfill this goal.  After what happened in Dead Beat she could go either way.  Her ability to resist the mental downside of using black magic fails and she becomes completely corrupted and very dangerous, or she might finally see Cowl and his madness for what it really is, and decide to oppose him at all costs. 

Andi. Tragically, she has been driven round the bend by the killing of her boyfriend and being kidnapped on more than one occasion and almost drowning.  I think she stays in wolf form much more than is good for her and might be tempted to look for a way to be stronger; magically speaking, in order to protect herself from future threats.

Nicodemus.  Come on, he's trying to save the world.  NO!  He really is a bad guy.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 09:21:29 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2020, 09:51:51 PM »
Quote
Andi. Tragically, she has been driven round the bend by the killing of her boyfriend and being kidnapped on more than one occasion and almost drowning.  I think she stays in wolf form much more than is good for her and might be tempted to look for a way to be stronger; magically speaking, in order to protect herself from future threats.

She lives with Butters now, but I agree she'd make a good candidate.  Nic I believe will turn things around in the end, things are pointing that way including the Holy Grail.  As the old saying goes, "be careful for what you ask/wish for, you may get it.."  He got it, and if Michael is right about it being such a powerful force for good,  things may not turn out as Nic had planned..  Murphy would make the ultimate traitor,  it is doubtful that Harry would ever fully recover from such a thing...  I know her fans wouldn't..  ::)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 05:53:50 PM by Mira »

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2020, 02:56:27 AM »
Few concepts I have kicking around.

1) There is no Grey Council. Aside from Vaderrung, it's Black Council that showed at Chichen Itza. Their goal is an overthrow of the current supernatural order, not understanding the Outer Gates. Rashid is not involved, because he does.

2) Related: Eb was convinced by Margaret to join the proto-Black Council. He, Martha, and Listens are the villains Harry is unknowingly investigating

3) Nicodemus knows what's going on, and is trying to stop it. Ruthlessly- perhaps killing enough people means there's not enough magic for the Gates to be breached?

4) Mab wants out of her position. She's trying to create a new Guardian of the Gates. Both bad and good.

5) The Merlin is actually the hero.

6) Rashid also wants out

7) Titania is suicidal and only acting as compelled by her mantle.

8) The Erlking wants the Gates to fall because he wants that scrap to happen

9) Kincaid has broken a contract, because he refused to go along with the Black Council- he's actually a man of principle

10) Ivy ultimately wants to eliminate the White Council

11) Mavra became Black Court to have time to stop the outsiders

12) Kemmler was primarily concerned with stopping Nemesis/bolstering the Outer Gates

13) Father Forthill is involved in re-releasing the coins. Some kind of Church conspiracy to "force" selection of Knights

14) Lara Raith is definitely Black Council. When she found Harry was still protected by Susan (and thus immune to her power)- the very next book Peabody has directed Luccio to seduce Harry; this in turn makes him susceptible to Lara. She's using standard White Court tactics to eliminate those who might stop her- she was collaborating with Cowl to eliminate Malvora and Skavis.

Aside from #14, I think these are only possible. #14 I am convinced of- reading the series with that perspective changes everything; especially if Papa Raith was *not* part of the cabal and she always intended to have him taken out.

EDIT: And totally Elaine. Elaine may be Nemfected, may be the vector that infested Justin originally, and may currently be Nemfecting the Paranet, which is where wizard babies ultimately come from.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 03:03:19 AM by BrainFireBob »

Offline g33k

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2020, 07:54:30 AM »
1) There is no Grey Council. Aside from Vaderrung, it's Black Council that showed at Chichen Itza. Their goal is an overthrow of the current supernatural order, not understanding the Outer Gates. Rashid is not involved, because he does...

Cannot agree with any WAG that has some punk mortal wizards outsmarting and manipulating Vadderung...

... 3) Nicodemus knows what's going on, and is trying to stop it. Ruthlessly- perhaps killing enough people means there's not enough magic for the Gates to be breached?

4) Mab wants out of her position. She's trying to create a new Guardian of the Gates. Both bad and good...

I think these are each reasonably likely.  A "redemptive arc" for Nic is one of the popular speculations.


7) Titania is suicidal and only acting as compelled by her mantle.

8) The Erlking wants the Gates to fall because he wants that scrap to happen

Interesting WAGs.  Titania being mad (or just wanting to retire) seems more possible.  Erl got a crack at some Outsiders in their assault on Demonreach.  Seems to me that the Wild Hunt did OK, but not great:  Harry did his half, then went to help that half Erl was doing (Starborn FTW!) .  I think maybe Erl has figured out that if the Outer Gates fall, the flood of Outsiders will be more than all of Faerie could stop...

11) Mavra became Black Court to have time to stop the outsiders

12) Kemmler was primarily concerned with stopping Nemesis/bolstering the Outer Gates

I've got a counter-WAG for you:  necromancy -- and Blampires -- are based upon Outsider magic/energies.  :-)

13) Father Forthill is involved in re-releasing the coins. Some kind of Church conspiracy to "force" selection of Knights
I'm pretty sure Forthill is too canny to buy into that theory.  OTOH, he may believe in the premises we that "the coins are meant to be in circulation," and not resist very hard when Nic or someone leans on him, "gimme a couple of coins, or this innocent dies."

14) Lara Raith is definitely Black Council. When she found Harry was still protected by Susan (and thus immune to her power)- the very next book Peabody has directed Luccio to seduce Harry; this in turn makes him susceptible to Lara. She's using standard White Court tactics to eliminate those who might stop her- she was collaborating with Cowl to eliminate Malvora and Skavis.
Huh.  This is interesting!

We saw some signs that Papa Faith may have been Black Council, and Lara has his library & resources, and probably had him eagerly spill every secret he knew.  She may WELL have joined the BC.

Someone in another thread recently pointed out how VERY alike Lara's condemnation of the White Council was, compared to the Cowl/Kumori criticisms.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2020, 08:46:19 AM »
Someone in another thread recently pointed out how VERY alike Lara's condemnation of the White Council was, compared to the Cowl/Kumori criticisms.
And where Cowl and Kumori are at least assumed to be roughly human with a current age in the low 100's at most, Lara seems to be many centuries old. Kinda rich for a centuries old being to complain someone else is stuffy and not going with the times.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2020, 02:08:38 PM »
BrainFireBob - Number 1 changes everything and actually makes sense in a messed up way. But that would mean Vadderung wants to mess up the natural order.

#14 also very interesting, and most likely of your WAGs.

The rest are as likely as not, I think. But still very interesting!

Quote
  Someone in another thread recently pointed out how VERY alike Lara's condemnation of the White Council was, compared to the Cowl/Kumori criticisms. 

That was me, in the OP of this thread :)

KSG - Pretty much agree with everything your saying. I don't believe Nicodemus is good or will be good, he may sacrifice himself but I think as he was made as the Anti-Michael he is probably pretty bad.

Andi is an interesting choice... Has plenty of reasons to go bad. I like it

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2020, 06:47:28 PM »
Personally, I don't buy #14. Lara's a bona fide monster, but an independent one.

For the Malvora / Skavis coup plot to have been set up to fail, the Black Council players would have had to predict the lynchpin event of Lash' self-sacrifice allowing Harry to stop the coup. That was out of left field for Harry himself, let alone anyone who might have been trying to use him as a cat's paw there. And Vitto showed every indication that he was going to personally enjoy killing Lara horribly, right up until Harry shot his hand off.

Peabody had ample reasons of his own to push Luccio toward Harry, without doing it to help Lara break his protection.

I really can't see Lara subordinating herself to the organization that tried to have her killed to buy peace after the coup failed, either. She's a lot scarier and more interesting as a lone wolf building a power base so nobody can ever hurt her again like her father did, with no scruples how she gets there.

And as much as her analysis of what's wrong with the Council sounds like Cowl & Kumori's, it also sounds like Harry's at times.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2020, 10:21:51 PM »
Nicodemus "was made as the Anti-Michael he is probably pretty bad."
Agree. Nicodemus being redeemed is only slightly more likely than Michael being the one to betray Harry.

Technically, every White Council member in the Grey Council is a traitor.

I don't think Eb is going to be revealed to be a traitor to Harry because I feel that's basically what happened by him being the Blackstaff. Funny thing about the Blackstaff situation is that we know that it protects Eb from black magic corruption, but Harry doesn't.

I don't think Rashid is likely to be a traitor to "team reality" because I think he's in a position just hand a win to the Outsiders. Same with Harry and Mab. Rashid might betray Harry personally or the White Council generally.

I think Elaine and Andi could both go either way. I think Elaine has been purposely set up to be an obvious candidate for betrayal by Jim, but we have zero evidence that she is on the other side. We have a lot of opportunity for her to be a bad guy. She makes perfect sense as Kumori. I think she is to the reader as Harry was to the Gatekeeper in Turn Coat. I don't think she will end up being on the other side because it wouldn't be such a gut punch to the reader.

I also agree that the Merlin is a classic good guy who is also a complete ass to our protagonist.

Edit: Also, I can totally see Vaderung being a good guy open ally who ends up feeding you into a meat grinder or sets you up for a greater victory.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 10:27:09 PM by Bad Alias »

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 03:01:35 AM »
I think Elaine has been purposely set up to be an obvious candidate for betrayal by Jim, but we have zero evidence that she is on the other side. We have a lot of opportunity for her to be a bad guy. She makes perfect sense as Kumori. I think she is to the reader as Harry was to the Gatekeeper in Turn Coat. I don't think she will end up being on the other side because it wouldn't be such a gut punch to the reader.

I'm on the fence. She fits really well as Kumori, and Morgan's suspicion that Harry might be N-fected makes the most sense if they had intel suggesting Justin turned his apprentice but Harry actually succeeded in hiding that there was a second apprentice from the Council.

But on the other hand, she helped Harry shut down Aurora's plan in SK, and she seemed genuinely committed to fighting Cowl's plan in WN. So unless she's consciously herself most of the time but Kumori is like a suppressed personality that can only take over part-time, it's kind of hard to explain her playing the long game instead of helping Nemesis get a couple big wins at minimal personal risk.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 04:24:54 AM »
SK - Her shutting down Aurora's plans doesn't actually go against the grain exactly. Kumori and Cowl were clearly not of one mind, she even uses her necromancy to "save" a life. One wonders how a fine thrall would behave. They couldn't be too tightly controlled as they wouldn't be useful, but it would have to be enough that they were not as independent as a mere servant...because that leaves the possibility too open of flat out betrayal. Perhaps Elaine hepling Harry against Aurora was her own small act of rebellion, within her limits.

Or perhaps Elaine isn't enthralled but just has a different set of principles, despite being on Cowl's team. Maybe she even doesn't agree with a lot of his ideas, but agrees with enough of them to work with him sometimes. Wouldn't surprise me at all if she was allied with him because she knows about the greater threat coming, that Harry is clearly ignorant of, and has had to ally with dark and dangerous people in order to save people. Much like Harry. From the outside, Harry would look quite dark side if we only saw flashes of his life. Especially recently.

I don't know about the suppressed personality thing but who knows.

Also, I agree with your assessment of Lara and have revised my take. Although I think she could still end up playing for that team, she could well be recruited. They already have tried to recruit Dresden several times, perhaps they will keep trying or perhaps not. In any case I think there are a lot of disenfranchised people who see the White Council for what it is.

BA - Michael betraying Harry is almost the least likely thing that could happen. Maybe THE least likely. I kept being unable to find more unlikely prospects! So yeah, Nicodemus being redeemed (especially if its "he was good all along") is almost completely ridiculous.

True, those Grey Council guys are traitors, but we have been led to believe they are noble. Interesting point, why hasn't Harry questioned why Eb hasn't gone full warlock yet? If he is doing all that black magic, he should inevitably go warlock (at least from Harry's limited perspective). But also  after Harry learns about Eb being his grandfather, he asks Eb whether all the secrets are out on the table between them and Eb says "No". He is definitely trying to set Harry up to expect further bombshells.

Yeah, I think you're right about Rashid. Not Black Council or whatever, but quite probably will betray the White Council in order to make it what it "should" be. And maybe betray Harry too...although I have no idea how.

Don't know that we have zero evidence for Elaine being Kumori, more that it is circumstantial. Nothing concrete at any rate, I will concede. More like I think when Harry does found out all her bad past/being a bad guy - I think the reasons won't be easy to argue with and THAT will shock Harry. Hell, he might even end up joining her!

Great descriptions of both the Merlin and Vadderung in my opinion, by the way.


Offline Con

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 09:13:32 AM »
I mean the last traitor came out of nowhere. Peabody was a minor character, nobody suspected because people thought he was useful but insignificant. Ebenezar and Harry even had a list of suspects who knew about the boot camp and had dismissed Luccio as a suspect. Therefore both actual traitors were dismissed or not even thought of.

Fortiers replacement was never even heard of until he took the council spot.

I'm not saying we haven't met who the other traitor(s) might be. I'm saying the last one came out of left field. For all we know it's Chandler.

Offline g33k

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2020, 04:29:45 PM »
Personally, I don't buy #14. Lara's a bona fide monster, but an independent one.

I don't think the Black Council is some association of idealistic folk serving a Higher Cause (except for those subverted by Outsiders, serving their "Cause").

I think most or all of them see themselves as more a "free association of equals," each gaining more (toward the advancement of their own agendas) than they expend toward any of the others' agendas... and with some "in-common" agenda-items they all want to see advanced.

I could see Lara participating on that basis!

What I cannot see is Lara leaving a big ol' focus of power (and behind-the-scenes manipulation) active, without wanting some leverage upon it, puppet-strings into it.  If -- as we've seen speculated -- Papa Raith was on the BC, I think Lara wouldn't have turned House Raith's back upon that.

For the Malvora / Skavis coup plot to have been set up to fail, the Black Council players would have had to predict the lynchpin event of Lash' self-sacrifice allowing Harry to stop the coup. That was out of left field for Harry himself, let alone anyone who might have been trying to use him as a cat's paw there. And Vitto showed every indication that he was going to personally enjoy killing Lara horribly, right up until Harry shot his hand off.

Recall that Harry's survival wasn't planned as part of the coup's success/failure; in fact, even getting Harry involved was seen (by the higher-ups) as a tactical error made by a "fool."

But Lash turning?  That was only really critical to HARRY.

The core of the Raith strength had already successfully evac'ed, by the time of that "linchpin event" where Harry was under Outsider assault and Lash finally joined Team Dresden.  Lara might have saved herself, too:  it was by only a fraction of a second's mis-judgement that she didn't get herself and Harry out through the closing Gate.

Also recall how quickly and effectively the Raith's responded to that initial assault (even before Harry gated-in his own allies)... almost like they'd had forewarning and had laid specific plans.  It looked a lot to me as if the Raith's were (successfully) evac'ing themselves, even before Harry gave them a Gate (to exit even more quickly).

Last but not least:  I expect the Black Council probably sees a fair degree of infighting and (quite literal) back-stabbing.  This "coup" could easily have been just another example of that.

... I really can't see Lara subordinating herself to the organization that tried to have her killed to buy peace after the coup failed, either...

I really can't see Lara walking away from a seat on the Black Council just because a rival tried (and failed) to have her killed; particularly when the end result was Houses Malvora & Skavis being decapitated, instead.  Lara beat the coup, she beat Cowl... so she... what... throws a tantrum and walks away from the power represented by the BC?
 
... She's a lot scarier and more interesting as a lone wolf building a power base so nobody can ever hurt her again like her father did, with no scruples how she gets there ...

I completely agree with this!  I just don't think a seat on the BC is incompatible with Lara's independence.  In fact, I doubt that ANY of the top tier see themselves as being "subject to" the BC:  they rule the BC, the BC doesn't rule them!  Meeting as "part of" the "The Circle" wouldn't be too unlike that meeting with other Whamp-Houses in the Deeps that night, or the presumed meeting that will be happening in Peace Talks...
 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2020, 05:22:58 PM »
I'm on the fence.
I think that's where we are supposed to be because she could justifiably go either way. I'm definitely suspicious, but I'm not convinced that she will be a bad guy. I won't be surprised either way.

[1] Much like Harry. From the outside, Harry would look quite dark side if we only saw flashes of his life. Especially recently.

[2] Michael betraying Harry is almost the least likely thing that could happen. Maybe THE least likely. I kept being unable to find more unlikely prospects! So yeah, Nicodemus being redeemed (especially if its "he was good all along") is almost completely ridiculous.

[3] Don't know that we have zero evidence for Elaine being Kumori, more that it is circumstantial. Nothing concrete at any rate, I will concede.

[4] More like I think when Harry does found out all her bad past/being a bad guy - I think the reasons won't be easy to argue with and THAT will shock Harry. Hell, he might even end up joining her!

[5]Great descriptions of both the Merlin and Vadderung in my opinion, by the way.
1. That's part of my point about Elaine. Many of the things we suspect her of doing, might be justified.

2. 100% what I'm saying.

3. The evidence against Elaine is a lot like the evidence against Richard Jewel. He was there. He gained (initially) from the events. He fit a profile. It's means, motive, opportunity, but that isn't really evidence that someone did something. It's closer to lack of evidence that they didn't do something. It's basically Morgan and the Gatekeeper's evidence against Harry minus a clear violation of the 1st Law.

4. That'd be much more unexpected than just her being a "bad guy."

5. Thanks.

But Lash turning?  That was only really critical to HARRY.

The core of the Raith strength had already successfully evac'ed, by the time of that "linchpin event" where Harry was under Outsider assault and Lash finally joined Team Dresden.
And the BC could have assumed, if Harry surviving was part of their plan, he would take up the coin to survive.

The Raith contingent hadn't escaped. The blast would have killed them with the gate still open. Or at least Harry thought it would.

Also recall how quickly and effectively the Raith's responded to that initial assault (even before Harry gated-in his own allies)... almost like they'd had forewarning and had laid specific plans.  It looked a lot to me as if the Raith's were (successfully) evac'ing themselves, even before Harry gave them a Gate (to exit even more quickly).
The UberGhouls had some reserves blocking the exit. I don't think the Raiths were going to make it, but that could be because their forewarning was insufficient to prepare them.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Traitors
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2020, 09:18:27 PM »
*Reads first post*
*Ctrl+F to see if Mira mentions Murphy as a traitor*
In seriousness, I think there are generally a lot of good thoughts in the thread. But my vote is Chandler, all the way. I find it a bit too suspicious that the guy who screws around with time remains the only "young" warden free during the Purge in Changes. I can see him developing quite a God Complex.