The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Which mortal might become nemfected?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 05, 2019, 06:50:25 PM ---That is assuming that the Outsiders are behind the infestation. There is evidence from what was going on at the Gates with Rashid that they can at least spread the infestation to Winter's soldiers.
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I think that is a safe assumption.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Kindler on December 04, 2019, 05:18:48 PM ---I think that if Peabody were Infected, he would have spread Nemesis to the Senior Council ASAP. He was using mind-affecting ink instead of transmitting Nemesis itself, which would be the logical way to do things, in my opinion.
Though that may be explainable by the process of Nemesis Infection itself. Jim hasn't revealed the precise method of transmission. If it requires overpowering someone and holding them down for an hour or something, then that's going to be difficult for someone like Peabody...
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It seems to me that not all infections will be equal. Faeries gain stuff like the ability to tell bald-faced lies, and "Free Will" or some analogue thereof -- the ability to act against their "natures" (which normally, no faerie can ever do).
Humans can't get that from Nemesis, obviously!
As you note, we have no known infections of humans, so we don't know ANYTHING about it... including that an infected mortal becomes any sort of "vector" themselves -- an infected Peabody might not be ABLE to pass on an infection.
That said... Peabody strikes me as 100% a mortal practitioner, a Black Council wizard. I don't think we need to postulate Nemesis or any other influence than the BC (of course, the BC may itself be influenced, or even be fully the tool, of Nemesis; but Peabody in and of himself is "just" a very subtle & powerful warlock (however, see WAGging below)).
--- Quote from: Kindler on December 04, 2019, 05:18:48 PM --- 2. It's possible to Infect someone quickly, like they did with Cat Sith. He was off-page for about, what, five hours? Ten? Cold Days all happens within a 30ish-hour period (Harry leaves the party for Chicago sometime after midnight but before dawn, and the final confrontation on Demonreach is before Dawn on the following day. 2-3am-->1-5am, in my opinion). But the point is that, between the time Harry first talks to Lily and Nemesis is revealed and the Wild Hunt v. Outsiders Cage Match, Cat Sith is captured and Infected.
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We don't actually know, AFAIK, when Cat Sith was infected; maybe before the beginning of Cold Days. Maybe a "backup" or "secondary" plan of Infected Lea, in case (or when) Maeve's infection was detected & countered.
The Infected CS, or maybe Nemesis itself, remarked that it was a shame to give up the covert action, but we don't really know how long that had been going on, beforehand...
--- Quote from: Kindler on December 04, 2019, 05:18:48 PM --- 3. ... because we haven't seen that behavior from other confirmed Infected (namely, Maeve).
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I very much have the impression that Maeve's was a straightforward, knowing, and intentional transaction, almost like a Denarian Coin: "You give me enough power to thwart and overthrow my MommyDearest, and... why, I shall overthrow my MommyDearest for you!!!" It slips past Winter's inherent opposition to Outsiders via the Faeries-make-Bargains and The-Lady-Replaces-The-Queen loopholes, by way of Winter's openness to betrayal and The-Strong-Shall-Survive ethos.
--- Quote from: Kindler on December 04, 2019, 05:18:48 PM ---4. There is likely some kind of cost for Nemesis to spread to too many things...
I therefore infer that there is some kind of cost associated with Infection. Either Nemesis can maintain a limited number of active Infections, or there is some other kind of cost I can't conceive at the moment.
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Maybe Nemesis only has so much power, in total. It's not like a virus, where every infection is an independent occurence. Lea and Maeve together represent a HUGE amount of power!
--- Quote from: Kindler on December 04, 2019, 05:18:48 PM --- ... 5. No mortals have been confirmed to be Infected. Some insist that mortals can't be Infected at all, but I don't see why that would be the case, and haven't seen any evidence beyond "No confirmation of Infected Mortals = Can't Be Done." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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As best I recall and understand, you are correct. We have only absence of information. Does anyone have a cgrep for the WoJ archives? :o
I've seen the theory that "all black magic is Outsider in origin." This might imply that Sorcerors are all Nemfected, and we've seen PLENTY of those! But again, I don't think this is demonstrated as canonically factual.
HOWEVER... I have personally noted (elsethread) that the key element we've seen Nemesis do is muck around with Free Will; this speaks to me very-specifically of mind-magic. Maybe that one, specifically, is Outsider in nature, or specially Outsider-susceptible (recall that Harry's soulgaze of Molly revealed a possible future with all-black eyes, and an identity as "something no longer human"). If so, Peabody might have been more in league with them than my prior analysis suggests.
g33k:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on December 04, 2019, 09:07:15 AM --- ... Question #1. Do you think a mortal character will be taken over by Nemesis sometime in the series? (Including the BAT.)
Let me be more specific. I don't mean manipulated by Nemesis or one of it's agents, I mean fully taken over like we saw with Cat Sith. Personally, I don't believe Victor Sells or Leonid Kravos were possessed by Nemesis. I think they were manipulated into using black magic or were already doing so and promised more power and were trained up. The corrupting effects of black magic did the rest. The FBI were tainted by using the wolf pelt belts, so Nemesis infection wasn't there either. (Lily was as unreliable a narrator in the DF's as we could get.) ...
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I think it remains an open question WHETHER mortals can be infected (at least so far as the canonical stories and the WoJ's).
I point out that when Harry & his ghost battle Kravos' ghost, Harry could see a "demon" who had been possessing Kravos in life; so your blanket claim that Kravos had no Outsider possession is... not wrong, but maybe not as strong as you presented (after all, other (non-Outsider) beings can "possess" a mortal; but on the Gripping Hand, I don't think Harry would have recognized an "Outsider," that early in his career; also, it was presumably just the "ghostly echo," the imprint of the "demon" (and Kravos' experience of it) in life, not the ACTUAL demon (because Harry didn't have to fight the demon as a separate entity from Kravos' ghost)).
From a Doylist perspective... yes, I do think humans can be possessed by Outsiders. I think so specifically because I expect Jim to torment Harry with it. I presume Harry himself won't get possessed -- or if so, only very briefly -- because that would be to much a retread of the Lasciel plot (but Harry shattering an attempted possession would show him at a higher power-level, and be less of a retread).
But if Murphy got possessed? Probably not, because we had Possessed-Anastasia, and it seems like Karrin+Harry are now sittin' in a tree / kay eye ess ess eye enn GEE! So it's another too-much-a-retread scenario. But it'd mess with him, for sure!
Or Molly (oooh, yummy new (naive & thus vulnerable!) WinterLady for Nemesis!!! (nevermind the Free Will, dear... you'll get to Have! Sex! With! Harry! Yeah, WinterMolly got some weakness goin' on there!)). I don't think that Harry has yet twigged to the Ladies being nubile, erotic, virgins as part of their essential identities. Maybe he has, or he will before NemfNymphMolly tries to jump him, and her genuine willingness is what tips him off...
Or Marcone? Not that it'd tear up Harry emotionally, but the OMG-No! that Harry had -- when he realized the Denarians might (eventually) get Marcone to pick up a coin -- that terror, fulfilled.
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on December 04, 2019, 09:07:15 AM --- Question #2 If you think it's possible or even likely someone will be possessed, or perhaps already is, who is it, or who will it be? (Actually there's a second part to this question, so really there are three questions. Part 2b. And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?
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I am extremely unclear as to how much Outsiders or Nemesis actually understand the world. Do they grasp modern cultures and tools and technologies? Politics, economics? The weapons? Etc. It seems to me like Nemesis should already have done a bunch of stuff with mortals. But maybe they just don't understand those crazy mortals well enough to pull their levers and press their buttons in ways that are effective... I'm thinking of Arthur Weaseley's comedic fascination/ignorance around All Things Muggle.
Note that they don't even need to be able to possess a mortal directly -- plenty of the beings they CAN possess are eminently capable of persuading or forcing a human to do absolutely anything!
There's also the issue -- if mortals can indeed be Nemfected -- of which mortals already ARE infected, and just still hidden.
Which mortals? As above... from a Doylist perspective, the one(s) that will most emotionally-wreck Harry, the ones who will most strategically-blindside him, the ones who will most tactically-threaten him.
* My top "already infected" pick is Elaine Mallory (by way of Justin DuMorne, en route to bargaining with Summer, as a subterfuge for infecting Aurora). It wrecks Harry, it blindsides him (she's been Such a Good Girl (and a contributing member of society) since Harry rescued her from the Nasty Faerie!), it's a tactical threat (not-quite-Harry-Strong, and much-more-than-Harry-deft; plus whatever Nemesis power-ups).
* Molly. Harry will have to crawl up out of his own vomit-pit, he'd be so sickened and destroyed by this; a top pick for new infections. Elaine / Molly may have to be a Doylistic either/or" there's a lot of narrative similarity to these...
* A different Carpenter kid. Maybe Daniel (who's already struggling morally); or namesake-Harry, or Hobbit. One of the ones who gets extra characterization.
* Marcone. Strategic blindside (he knows Marcone will resist possession) and tactical threat, as above.
* Any of the White Council, but especially his "reliable" allies like Ramirez, "Steed," IJ/LtW; and MOST especially, of course, Ebenezer (though honestly, I expect Eb's fate is different: to die tragically, leaving an unclaimed Blackstaff that Harry needs to pick up and wield in extremis). I have LESS expectation that any of the WC whom Harry already despises will go Nemesis, it's just a waste of narrative.
* The Black Council (assuming they AREN'T already just Outsider-puppets), not excluding Cowl (but see below). I presume at least one Nemfection, and maybe more. Already Nemfected, or will be; either/or/both. They're just jerks that way.
* The suggestion of Justine by @Kindler is an interesting one, and checks at least some of my boxes; a solid pick.
* Agent Tilly. I'd hate it if it happened: I like Tilly too much and want to see Clued-In Tilly rather than Nemfected Tilly; but it ticks Blindside AND Threatening (Tilly can bring really egregious amounts of mortal firepower to bear), and it'd Wreck Harry by way of wrecking Murphy, to whom Tilly is an old and trusted friend.
That's all who spring to mind, though I expect I've overlooked some good options. I currently suspect Cowl not of Nemfection, but of being TT-Harry with an extra 2-3 centuries of experience.
morriswalters:
Given the lack of data anything is possible. Given Butcher's professed laziness, I'm gonna go with it works like the coins. The magic that bound the Denarians to the coins had to come from somewhere. So, a touch is enough, and the shadow can take over the subject immediately if Nicodemus is to be believed. Cat Sith didn't like Harry anyway so it would have only taken a nudge. I wouldn't put money on it though.
Mira:
--- Quote ---My top "already infected" pick is Elaine Mallory (by way of Justin DuMorne, en route to bargaining with Summer, as a subterfuge for infecting Aurora). It wrecks Harry, it blindsides him (she's been Such a Good Girl (and a contributing member of society) since Harry rescued her from the Nasty Faerie!), it's a tactical threat (not-quite-Harry-Strong, and much-more-than-Harry-deft; plus whatever Nemesis power-ups).
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I'd agree with this or at the very least a "Typhoid Mary," while not infected herself, none the less a "carrier" of the infection to the likes of Aurora and the Summer Court.
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