Author Topic: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks  (Read 1020 times)

Offline g33k

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 595
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2019, 04:52:00 PM »
... No way. If the council recognises individual wizards with their retainers as accord members every warlock under pressure is going to try that.
The White Council doesn't get a say:  they are subject to the Accords, not in charge of them.

A prospective Accord member just has to get a few existing Accord members to sign/sponsor them.  That's how Marcone got in.  In the abstract, that's how rando-warlock could get in.

(Of course, the newly-Accorded party needs to demonstrate they CAN play in the Big Leagues... note how the Denarian's attacked Marcone, with the cover-story that they were removing a "presumptuous upstart" not really "entitled" to be Accorded; and without an Accorded protest, that action would evidently be allowed to stand!  So if Rando-Warlocks tried to get Accorded -- and actually got the signatures -- then the WC could just "Nope" and arrest them anyhow; then see if anyone else wanted to protest, in that "Willing to paint a big sign on myself saying, PrimaryTargetOfWhiteCouncil" way...  Maybe add a day of waiting before the execution?).

But the WAG here is NOT Elaine getting recognized as an individual wizard (with retainers), but the Paranet, the organization (with her at the head, admittedly) getting recognized.  What the Paranet needs -- since they aren't ON the White Council -- is enough mojo to make a credible showing in their own right.

I'm WAG'ing that they CAN muster that mojo, as follows...

Elaine shows up as splashy and powerful, to be The Face, to make an impression.  But there's a LOT of paranet'ers.  The same way Ordo Lebes joined forces to raise wards that none of them could have solo'ed, Elaine's own magical-theorycraft & position (coordinating a continentful of Paranet'ers!) could let her gather quite a bit of power into items and enchantments.  A bit of Cassandra's-Tears precog in battle (so she knows what EVERY foe is most-likely to do, a second or two before they do it) and many many more little bits of advantage.  The ocean itself is made up of many many drops of water, after all; and Elaine's capacity to contain and inform and concentrate and leverage those little bits of power could produce truly formidable results.  She could probably get serious power-boosts for some lieutenant-y figures, too... imagine if all the Alpha's had a half-dozen Paranet-given battle-buff's, for example.

And maybe (or rather, probably) Agent "I can magically tell when you are lying" Tilly as a Paranet member... and his backup, the 70000+ Special Forces operatives the US military maintains; some of whom can -- in the leadup to the Peace Talks -- be given a Spooky Infodump & special training for Whamps, Blamps, Summer & Winter Courts, Wildfae & The Hunt, various were's and other shapeshifters, etc etc etc...

Masquerade bye-bye.

Kemmler would have been a member.
The de-facto WC position seems to have been that Kemmler was a member -- they killed him for breaking WC laws.  If Kemmler had been willing to abide by those laws, and showed up at Council meetings to be a voting member, they'd have been "yeah, sure, strong enough, of course you're on the WC."

They don't try to assert a death-penalty on every Whamp who does a psychic takeover of mortals, for example, because the WC's Laws don't apply to Whamps.

They don't invite minor talents to join the Council, because not strong enough; so Paranet talents aren't part of the WC, aren't Accorded.

The WC (Harry) chose to assert protection over them, but they aren't part of the Accords.  The WC also chooses to visit/warn any group or individual they notice developing enough power to potentially break the Laws, and order them not to do that; but that's more akin to how Vamps order their mortal minions/food around.  Justine cannot make her own claim under the Accords; but she can present Lara's claim.

It boils down to GETTING onto the Accords with the sponsoring member's signing you up; then STAYING there when a whole bunch of next-level powers start testing your new status -- there is no "spirit of the Accords" (except maybe a "Law of the Jungle" spirit).

So if Elaine makes a Paranet-based claim -- if she gets the signatures -- then the Paranet is an Accorded party.  Maybe the WC then says to her "hey, you're one of US!"  At that point -- with a separate Accorded power-base -- she might not even protest that much (or she might deny them, pointing to their prior tests, and say it's the Paranet that gives her enough power).  But she could be BOTH Paranet AND on the WC... then she's Accorded under both groups (as are, for example Vadderung / Kringle, or a certain WC-Warden & the Winter Knight, and I presume others).
 
... The council will claim her and she gets a grey cloack and no other members will complain so she better keeps her head low.
They need to persuade everyone to go Greycloak, they can't force them (because one unwilling battlemage in a group, who decided to go rogue to escape, could destroy the whole group by a strategically chosen moment to rebel).  Harry wasn't happy to put it on, but in the end he chose to.

As above, she can probably refuse the WC, under a separate Accorded status (but I suspect she would not, because WC membership would enhance her abuility to elevate the Paranet).  But she WOULD likely refuse to Greycloak, because she cannot reasonably do her head-of-Paranet duties while being subject to Warden Command.
 

Offline Bad Alias

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 632
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2019, 05:03:06 PM »
Who are human but not strong and versatile enough for the white council.

They police them because they claim them. Accord factions police their own.

Elaine has all three and Ramirez would have claimed her for the wardens if she had showed her real power and ability.
Are you saying that the Paranet is every human who isn't on the White Council, or are you putting an upper bracket on my lower bracket description?

The point of the White Council is to enforce the laws of magic. That's why the police them. That they the Council could claim a protectable interest in them was considered a novel approach by Harry in White Night.

Because dedication is required, membership in the Council has always been somewhat voluntary. I also thing the situation during the war with the Red Court was probably an anomalous situation like the draft. I don't have any proof for all this; it's just a gut feeling.

@BadAlias: I meant that I believe that Peace Talks is gonna get so crazy that the masquerade is gonna get broken. ... At first I thought PT was the beginning of the masquerade breaking but then Butcher brought out 'Christmas Eve' and those numbers made me rethink that.
I don't think it will be broken until very close to the end of the series, but I'd say that it has already started breaking based on some comments in one of the books after Changes. I can't remember which, but it was something like "it's getting bad, Harry. Even the media is beginning to take notice of weird things happening."

if 3 members sign up a Warlock, that's 3 members who are on the Council's kill-list.
I'd say that's the case only if signing up someone is allying with them. I'd say it's not because Marcone and the Council aren't allies. Though, I imagine the Council would definitely not appreciate those three members doing that.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 10820
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2019, 06:10:33 PM »
The White Council doesn't get a say:  they are subject to the Accords, not in charge of them.
Not in charge of the accords but they claim authority over human magic users and that claim is recognised by the other accords members. See white Night. And that is the reason why the accords are no help for warlocks.
Quote
A prospective Accord member just has to get a few existing Accord members to sign/sponsor them.  That's how Marcone got in.  In the abstract, that's how rando-warlock could get in.
Marcone was not claimed by any other faction. If he was the whole thing would have been more complicated.
Quote
(Of course, the newly-Accorded party needs to demonstrate they CAN play in the Big Leagues... note how the Denarian's attacked Marcone, with the cover-story that they were removing a "presumptuous upstart" not really "entitled" to be Accorded; and without an Accorded protest, that action would evidently be allowed to stand!  So if Rando-Warlocks tried to get Accorded -- and actually got the signatures -- then the WC could just "Nope" and arrest them anyhow; then see if anyone else wanted to protest, in that "Willing to paint a big sign on myself saying, PrimaryTargetOfWhiteCouncil" way...  Maybe add a day of waiting before the execution?).

But the WAG here is NOT Elaine getting recognized as an individual wizard (with retainers), but the Paranet, the organization (with her at the head, admittedly) getting recognized.  What the Paranet needs -- since they aren't ON the White Council -- is enough mojo to make a credible showing in their own right.
The paranetters do not have enough weight for that. They are prey or people to protect.
Quote
I'm WAG'ing that they CAN muster that mojo, as follows...

Elaine shows up as splashy and powerful, to be The Face, to make an impression.  But there's a LOT of paranet'ers.  The same way Ordo Lebes joined forces to raise wards that none of them could have solo'ed, Elaine's own magical-theorycraft & position (coordinating a continentful of Paranet'ers!) could let her gather quite a bit of power into items and enchantments.  A bit of Cassandra's-Tears precog in battle (so she knows what EVERY foe is most-likely to do, a second or two before they do it) and many many more little bits of advantage.  The ocean itself is made up of many many drops of water, after all; and Elaine's capacity to contain and inform and concentrate and leverage those little bits of power could produce truly formidable results.  She could probably get serious power-boosts for some lieutenant-y figures, too... imagine if all the Alpha's had a half-dozen Paranet-given battle-buff's, for example.

And maybe (or rather, probably) Agent "I can magically tell when you are lying" Tilly as a Paranet member... and his backup, the 70000+ Special Forces operatives the US military maintains; some of whom can -- in the leadup to the Peace Talks -- be given a Spooky Infodump & special training for Whamps, Blamps, Summer & Winter Courts, Wildfae & The Hunt, various were's and other shapeshifters, etc etc etc...

Masquerade bye-bye.
The de-facto WC position seems to have been that Kemmler was a member -- they killed him for breaking WC laws.  If Kemmler had been willing to abide by those laws, and showed up at Council meetings to be a voting member, they'd have been "yeah, sure, strong enough, of course you're on the WC."
Member is a big word. The white council position is that as a human wizard he was their responsibility. But I meant member of the accords. He had more power than some members but he did not try that. Most likely because he could not, the white council had already claimed authority.
Quote
They don't try to assert a death-penalty on every Whamp who does a psychic takeover of mortals, for example, because the WC's Laws don't apply to Whamps.

They don't invite minor talents to join the Council, because not strong enough; so Paranet talents aren't part of the WC, aren't Accorded.
Not members as such but the white council claims them.
Quote
The WC (Harry) chose to assert protection over them, but they aren't part of the Accords.  The WC also chooses to visit/warn any group or individual they notice developing enough power to potentially break the Laws, and order them not to do that; but that's more akin to how Vamps order their mortal minions/food around.  Justine cannot make her own claim under the Accords; but she can present Lara's claim.

It boils down to GETTING onto the Accords with the sponsoring member's signing you up; then STAYING there when a whole bunch of next-level powers start testing your new status -- there is no "spirit of the Accords" (except maybe a "Law of the Jungle" spirit).

So if Elaine makes a Paranet-based claim -- if she gets the signatures -- then the Paranet is an Accorded party.  Maybe the WC then says to her "hey, you're one of US!"  At that point -- with a separate Accorded power-base -- she might not even protest that much (or she might deny them, pointing to their prior tests, and say it's the Paranet that gives her enough power).  But she could be BOTH Paranet AND on the WC... then she's Accorded under both groups (as are, for example Vadderung / Kringle, or a certain WC-Warden & the Winter Knight, and I presume others).
 They need to persuade everyone to go Greycloak, they can't force them (because one unwilling battlemage in a group, who decided to go rogue to escape, could destroy the whole group by a strategically chosen moment to rebel).  Harry wasn't happy to put it on, but in the end he chose to.

As above, she can probably refuse the WC, under a separate Accorded status (but I suspect she would not, because WC membership would enhance her abuility to elevate the Paranet).  But she WOULD likely refuse to Greycloak, because she cannot reasonably do her head-of-Paranet duties while being subject to Warden Command.
She does not have the power to refuse the white council. Just one wizard and a lot of nobodies. And refusing the cloack might not be an option. Harry got drafted.

But she could keep her paranet hobby. Harry kept his private investigator hobby for years. She just has to turn up when needed.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2019, 04:30:19 PM »
On the Peace Talks masquerade-breakage: there is a WOJ somewhere (within the past couple of years) that there will be an event that is too big to simply cover up. I don't think it's a full-on case of Vanillas acknowledging the supernatural, but I do think that it's going to start in Peace Talks.
Couple that with Harry's narration in the Christmas short about there being
(click to show/hide)
, I think that we're talking about a major disaster. Like, worse than 9/11. That's a couple of city blocks getting flattened, or an enormous, full-scale assault.
I am not going into it, but there are still theories that reject the official story of that event (please, please let's not discuss them here; I'm only mentioning them because the fact that those theories exist is relevant to my point) 18 years later. If, say, the Fomor drop a massive bomb (like the one Molly disarms in Bombshells, but on a much larger, city-level scale) during Peace Talks, people are going to ask questions. Mortal authorities are not going to be able to come up with a story that adequately covers up something at that scale. Lots of people won't buy "terrorism" as the answer.
So I think Peace Talks is going to be when the masquerade starts to slip. It's going to take some time before enough people—probably starting with people like the guy who was tracking boat rentals in Cold Days—start to question the narrative and find out what really happened. Too many eyewitnesses left alive, too many unanswered questions that aren't adequately explained, too many people in the ground.
So... yeah. I think that, by the end of Body Slam, Humanity will have begun to really take notice of the supernatural, and things are going to get complicated.

Offline dspringer1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1057
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2019, 12:28:26 AM »
My own two cents.

1) The White Council represents both their own members and human wizards in general.   That is why they can hunt down warlocks as they are policing their own.  This is also why Harry could challenge the white court dudes based on their targeting of talented mortals. 

2) If the Paranet established themselves as Accord members (aka their own nation), they would be specifically exempting themselves from White Council oversight.  How that plays with the hunting of warlocks would be a highly political question.

3) There is NO WAY the paraneters today have the the power to establish themselves as an accord nation.  Their power is just way too weak.  I do not care how powerful Elaine is, you would need a hundred Elaines to begin to have enough power to establish the paraneters as a true supernatural nation under the accords. 

3) The Paranet might be able to establish themselves as a 2nd tier organization like that human society that is an ally of the White Council.  Clearly much weaker than the White Council or any other full accord member, but they have some formal status/place within the larger supernatural community and could formally ally with one of the supernatural nations like the White Council.  That status would give them more protection/status than they have today and I think that is one of the two possible outcomes Harry planned for when establishing the Paranet to begin with.    The other (preferred) being that the White Council expands itself to include the lesser talents. 

4) I do not think the paranetters can establish themselves as Free Holding Lords.  That status belongs to an individual, not an organization.  Elaine lacks the enough power to make that stick on her own and the paranet lacks the huge financial resources/muscle that Marcone has to effectively back her up.  Freestanding lord would only apply to Elaine in any case.  The other members of the paranet would only get indirect protection as her vassals and I doubt that would be worth anything more than the indirect protection they already get today from the White Council. 

5) I have no idea how the Accords would handle organizations like the United Sates of America trying to join if the magical world becomes public knowledge.   Although i do agree that this problem will not come up in Peace Talks. 

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3784
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2019, 08:39:12 PM »
It seems to me the Paranet could perhaps be on par with the Venatori Umborium.  In fact this group might be the Paranet's most natural ally.  They do mostly intel work though occasionally they get into fights.  Here is how one fan site described them:

The Venatori Umborium are a collection of men and women around the world who have knowledge of the supernatural community and a community of support and means to effect them. In the war between the Red Court and White Council, the Venatori have made bold attacks in shutting down Red Court resources (like bank accounts), discrediting Red Court members in positions of power and even having raids where Red Court members will disappear off the map. Harry Dresden believes that some members would act to destroy some supernatural creatures simply because they are such in his conversation with this subconscious in Fool Moon.

With the exception of Elaine, the vast majority of paranet members lack even the limited combat ability that some members Venatori Umborium have.  So I have to agree with dspringer1's statements below.

3) There is NO WAY the paraneters today have the the power to establish themselves as an accord nation.  Their power is just way too weak.  I do not care how powerful Elaine is, you would need a hundred Elaines to begin to have enough power to establish the paraneters as a true supernatural nation under the accords. 

3) The Paranet might be able to establish themselves as a 2nd tier organization like that human society that is an ally of the White Council.  Clearly much weaker than the White Council or any other full accord member, but they have some formal status/place within the larger supernatural community and could formally ally with one of the supernatural nations like the White Council.  That status would give them more protection/status than they have today and I think that is one of the two possible outcomes Harry planned for when establishing the Paranet to begin with.    The other (preferred) being that the White Council expands itself to include the lesser talents. 

However, it seems to me the current position of the Paranet is most similar to that of the Fellowship of Saint Giles during the White Council's war with the Red Court.  A peace treaty between the White Council and the Fomor is not in their interest, just as the Fellowship welcomed the war between the wizards and vampires.  I think that what most paranet members, and more specifically what Elaine would want is for the Fomor to be driven back into the sea.  That can't happen if the Fomor are granted territories they can lord over.

Elaine is the wild card in this conversation.  She is the defacto leader of the paranet, if it can be said to have a leader at all.  It's not her power as a wizard that makes Elaine someone to be reckoned with.  It's her power; that very few people know about, combined with the intelligence gathering ability of the paranet, plus her attitude towards the White Council.  Now that the Fellowship of Saint Giles is no more, would Elaine consider taking in someone like the late Hannah Ascher as a paranet member?  Someone who is a warlock, but not bat sh*t crazy.  You can put a pin in that last idea for now, it's just random speculation at the present.  My main point is that Elaine would probably rather disrupt the talks between the Council and the Fomor than be a part of them.  In fact, if she could do anything to turn other Accord members against the Fomor, why wouldn't she do it?  My guess is that in her own mind Elaine is already something of an outlaw. 

Elaine has the ability to make bad things happen to people and not people, and if no one is left alive to tell what happened, someone else will be blamed.  If a small group of Fomor servitors were ambushed and wiped out during what I'm assuming will be a temporary truce period for the peace talks, who would the Fomor blame?  If a Fomor bomb or other weapon was used in an attack against a delegate from an accorded nation at the talks, who is going blame the paranet for it?  No one.

I'm not expecting Elaine to show up in Peace Talks, but if she does I think she will be there as a disruptive force, not as someone trying to get the paranet recognized as a accorded nation.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline 123Chikadee

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 103
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2019, 02:45:06 AM »
You know, I hadn't considered that Elaine would be a disruptive force. But hey, I think they could also ally with the Venatori Umborium and that would work pretty well. I know most of the Paranet don't have the means to defend themselves, but I figure that on the whole, they'd want to change that. Especially after White Night.
Hm, well Peace Talks is supposed to be huge, so maybe she's squeezed in there somewhere. Maybe we'll get to see Thomas and Elaine interact again, but that's just me.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 10820
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2019, 07:47:32 AM »
Or Sarissa pops up and Elaine is working for her.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Firestarter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2019, 10:41:26 AM »
Why? Why should a representative from Paranet take place at Peace Talks?

Paranet is an info network for people who have some connection to the supernatural to be able to communicate and help each other out. It's the paranormal version of a neighborhood watch.

White Council is doing it's best to protect and police human wizards, because they are human. The reason Paranet had to come into existence was that White Council suffered extreme losses and didn't have enough people. So lesser talents were suddenly encountering issues that were originally take care by the Wardens or a freelance wizard of the White Council.

White council are the guys with the big guns who can take big monsters down. That gives them the right to have become a member of the Accords.
... hear me roar ;)

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 10820
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2019, 12:20:02 PM »
Why? Why should a representative from Paranet take place at Peace Talks?

Paranet is an info network for people who have some connection to the supernatural to be able to communicate and help each other out. It's the paranormal version of a neighborhood watch.

White Council is doing it's best to protect and police human wizards, because they are human. The reason Paranet had to come into existence was that White Council suffered extreme losses and didn't have enough people. So lesser talents were suddenly encountering issues that were originally take care by the Wardens or a freelance wizard of the White Council.

White council are the guys with the big guns who can take big monsters down. That gives them the right to have become a member of the Accords.
Because Elaine thinks her debt to Summer is over but that is far from certain, those debts are usually not that easy to get rid of (there is old woj about that if I remember correctly). She probably does not want to get involved, the white council might notice her, but she might not have any choice. But then she probably wants the paranet to keep out of it.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 18492
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2019, 01:10:35 PM »
You know, I hadn't considered that Elaine would be a disruptive force. But hey, I think they could also ally with the Venatori Umborium and that would work pretty well. I know most of the Paranet don't have the means to defend themselves, but I figure that on the whole, they'd want to change that. Especially after White Night.
Hm, well Peace Talks is supposed to be huge, so maybe she's squeezed in there somewhere. Maybe we'll get to see Thomas and Elaine interact again, but that's just me.

As I said in my thread, the woman could be a Trojan Horse.

Offline morriswalters

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 759
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2019, 07:25:02 PM »
When last we heard of the Paranet in Ghost Story, they were under attack with large numbers gone missing.  That was six months after Changes.  Are there any Paraneter's left?  Elaine would be as busy as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs trying to help them or betray them , since Molly put Ramirez in the hospital.

Also being slow as I age, who is having Peace Talks?  Is there a WOJ on this?

Offline Mira

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 18492
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2019, 01:40:40 PM »
When last we heard of the Paranet in Ghost Story, they were under attack with large numbers gone missing.  That was six months after Changes.  Are there any Paraneter's left?  Elaine would be as busy as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs trying to help them or betray them , since Molly put Ramirez in the hospital.

Also being slow as I age, who is having Peace Talks?  Is there a WOJ on this?

Not that I know of, however judging from the two teaser chapters that Harry is going to have a lot to do with the security for the talks, my guess would be the White Council.   But then again Harry is also the Winter Knight so it could be that Mab thinks it would be a good idea to have them.   If I remember correctly there is a bit of history between the Winter Court and the Fomor.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 10820
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2019, 05:04:27 PM »
Not that I know of, however judging from the two teaser chapters that Harry is going to have a lot to do with the security for the talks, my guess would be the White Council.   But then again Harry is also the Winter Knight so it could be that Mab thinks it would be a good idea to have them.   If I remember correctly there is a bit of history between the Winter Court and the Fomor.
Two chapters?
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 18492
    • View Profile
Re: Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2019, 01:19:07 PM »
Two chapters?

Yeah,  it was at least a year ago,  I could be wrong about first two chapters but it was at least the first.. 

(click to show/hide)

As I said it was quite a while ago, it was on Jim's site.   My memory can be off or they were written early enough that Jim could rewrite, but that is how I remember them.  So unless my memory is way off, I was dreaming or Jim rewrites, it looks to me like either the White Council or the Winter Court are responsible for security for the talks and possibly also host them.   It also makes sense, my guess is something nasty will happen, it always does, right?  Because he is one of the ones in charge of security, Harry will be the fall guy and the rest of the book will be him either trying to clear himself or find out who wanted the talks to fail.. All if this had even greater consequences down the road, framing up the next book..