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123Chikadee:
Well, I don't mean to harp on this and I keep this into a generalization, b/c it's a little left field. But just because taking out a bad person who'll just have someone else just as bad, doesn't mean that the first bad person shouldn't be taken out of power. To me, that's just a defeatist way of thinking. By that logic, why do anything to try and make the world a better place; you may as well sit there like a bump on a log. I'd take Grey's assertions with a grain of salt, since he is benefiting from things being the way they are.
Though, yeah it is pretty interesting that Grey tries to be careful with how he provokes Marcone  because of how mortals can be dangerous. Does Grey make any mention of Monoc or BFG as a reason to play nice?
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well,  the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.

Dina:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on October 15, 2019, 05:07:37 PM ---We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.

--- End quote ---

I agree about Fool Moon, but I don't see the rest as weakness. And I don't remember him being afraid of Harry, but he respects him more than Billy or Murphy.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: 123Chikadee on October 16, 2019, 12:04:29 AM ---Well, I don't mean to harp on this and I keep this into a generalization, b/c it's a little left field. But just because taking out a bad person who'll just have someone else just as bad, doesn't mean that the first bad person shouldn't be taken out of power. To me, that's just a defeatist way of thinking. By that logic, why do anything to try and make the world a better place; you may as well sit there like a bump on a log. I'd take Grey's assertions with a grain of salt, since he is benefiting from things being the way they are.
Though, yeah it is pretty interesting that Grey tries to be careful with how he provokes Marcone  because of how mortals can be dangerous. Does Grey make any mention of Monoc or BFG as a reason to play nice?
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well,  the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.

--- End quote ---
Harry was a warlock and felt the pull of it. He was teached by Ebenezar not in the first place to develop his magic but more importantly to keep it in check. He has some coping mechanisms to stay on the safe site. Most importantly not use his magic for petty personal gain like heating his shower and taking more blame than necessary, doubting himself. It is now part of his nature now and difficult to resist. But it is perfectly understandable, it is better than being beheaded.

I don't think Harry's friends were as aware of his lets the world burn attitude as we are, we read his first person pov account after all and they did not. They saw a friend who helped them many times in huge need of help so of course they helped.

We do not know that much about Grey's motivation but the one dollar fee jobs probably have unwritten rules. He is not just cheap labour for everyone.

With Harry he can just ask for a favor in turn and he know Harry will deliver if doing so is in accordance with Harry's rules but with Marcone he has to handle it differently.

Also because he has to show strength and independance to Marcone without creating too much conflict. It is a delicate balance.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well,  the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.
--- End quote ---

First of all, Harry didn't let the world burn..  Also this was expressed with the emotions of a parent trying to save his child, not some stranger, but his child.  That is a normal reaction..

The point about Bianca is she was batshit crazy to begin with,  the manipulators played her like a harp.   The same manipulators who turned Sells into a sorcerer then directed him to explode the heart of someone close to Bianca.  There is no other explanation for that, Sells didn't know the woman nor her connections.  However there is no way that that murder was a random act, it set the dominoes falling.  These manipulators knew that Harry would be brought into the case.  True Harry was asked not to go near Bianca, but at the same time answers were wanted by Murphy.   It is beside the point that if Bianca hadn't murdered her secretary it would have been someone else, the point is she blamed Harry for making her do it because she is insane.  Thus her need for revenge at the party, forgone conclusion based on the preplanning by the manipulators once they set it in motion..

Further on my reread of Summer Knight, Lea admits that she tricked Harry into screwing up with the Holy Sword so she could get it to exchange for the Knife.  I have posted in the past that in my opinion Lea was already infected with Nemesis even before she got the Knife simply because of her antagonism towards Mab.  This also plays into the preplanning by the manipulators, because before the Sword was taken by Lea, Harry had no intention of going to the party and he wouldn't have known what Susan did.. However what Susan did was predictable and we might find out at some point that it was no coincidence that she happened to be there when the irresistible invitation was delivered to Harry in the first place.

All of the above were merely chess pieces in a larger game, disgarded when no longer needed.  The goal was war between the Red Court and the White Council, aim to weaken the strongest opponents to the manipulators.  This was largely successful, when the Red Court was not longer needed or rather were in the way, the Red King is then manipulated in the name of revenge into devising a generational spell to take out Eb and his descendants..  So the kidnapping of little Maggie which was sure to bring Harry into it.   Get this straight, the manipulators do not for an instant underestimate Harry, the bet by them was he would successfully reverse that spell and take out the Red Court, which in turn would clear the way for the Fomor..  The Fomor who are much stronger and smarter to go against the White Council much weakened by the war with the Red Court..  Both sides again successfully played against each other by the manipulators who ever or what ever they are.


--- Quote ---We do not know that much about Grey's motivation but the one dollar fee jobs probably have unwritten rules. He is not just cheap labour for everyone.

With Harry he can just ask for a favor in turn and he know Harry will deliver if doing so is in accordance with Harry's rules but with Marcone he has to handle it differently.

Also because he has to show strength and independance to Marcone without creating too much conflict. It is a delicate balance.
--- End quote ---

Exactly.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: g33k on October 15, 2019, 10:25:44 PM ---Mostly I agree, but this point is rather weak:

He kind of did "make her," at least by the way Vamps judge things.

* He provoked her rage
* He injured her with his "pocket full of sunshine" spell, so she needed blood to heal
* He left her alone with her love-object / food.I realize the Vamp POV here is warped and evil; but by their twisted logic, "it's the wizard's fault" is a valid perspective.
 
It's one of the things that make the serious power-players so potent, is that they can recognize the internal rules that let them manipulate other powers.  Harry does it, somewhat.  I presume the Black Council was doing it much moreso, there.

--- End quote ---
Harry didn't make Bianca attack a wizard.


--- Quote from: Dina on October 16, 2019, 12:29:42 AM ---I agree about Fool Moon, but I don't see the rest as weakness. And I don't remember him being afraid of Harry, but he respects him more than Billy or Murphy.

--- End quote ---
Fear, respect, reasonable apprehension. Basically all the same thing for Marcone.


--- Quote from: Mira on October 16, 2019, 12:55:44 PM ---Get this straight, the manipulators do not for an instant underestimate Harry.

--- End quote ---
That doesn't seem to be Rashid's position. I think that in the earlier books, they don't expect Harry to get involved. In the later books, they underestimate him.

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