The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How did the Red Court Originate?
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: dspringer1 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:11 AM ---We know from the statements of Karin when a Knight (aka - an archangel speaking using her voice) that the Red Court in some way usurped the true gods who once operated in this area. Not clear if they seemly assumed the identity or consumed the old gods or something else. But whatever they did really pissed off the archangel.
--- End quote ---
Not quite.
--- Quote ---“False gods!” she cried, her blue eyes blazing as she stared at the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night. “Pretenders! Usurpers of truth! Destroyers of faith, of families, of lives, of children! For your crimes against the Mayans, against the peoples of the world, now will you answer! Your time has come! Face judgment Almighty!”
--- End quote ---
By the text the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster. JB goes all Abrahamic with that bit. The White God is a jealous God. However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 02:21:52 AM ---Not quite.By the text the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster. JB goes all Abrahamic with that bit. The White God is a jealous God. However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.
--- End quote ---
I do not take the words of an archangel necessarily as truth either. They run on stories and human belief as well and this is the truth as they believe. It is what they are expected to say about any other active god they are not ignoring. You can not expect them to say yes X is a valid god as well be happy worshipping him.
Yuillegan:
Well Jim says its canon. So we actually have WOJ that the Dresden Files RPG is essentially canon, and so the Paranet Papers fall under that umbrella. Like all the associated Dresden Files works, there is some misinformation and half-truths, mostly on account that Jim has more books to sell and doesn't want to ruin the whole thing.
As for words of an Archangel being truth - WOJ is that Uriel whispering seven words to Dresden was truth on a cosmic level at the end of Ghost Story. We also know that they have Intellectus which is defined as having all of reality present to the being with Intellectus, they merely have to ask the question to know the answer. They don't seek knowledge as such. But cause and effect are tricky for them because of that, because Time isn't linear for them either. So yeah Uriel may be somewhat changed by human belief in each universe he appears in, but the being that exists everywhere that is called Uriel in the Dresden Files universe is absolute. The WOJ is that it is NOT the beings themselves that change, but OUR understanding of who and what they are.
Kbrizzle - I agree with your theory mostly. I 100% agree that the Vampires Courts creation were multiple attempts at something, and I would bet that Drakul is behind it all (I even think I posted a theory on this a while back...). I must admit when I wrote my post I was half-asleep so that sentence on the end doesn't make sense, and I cannot remember really what I was meaning to say. I think if each Court of Vampires has a sort of LoON type group (Lord and Ladies of the Houses in White Court, Elders in the Black Court, probably something similar in Jade) then I agree it stands to reason the Lord Raith is likely NOT to be the progenitor. It would be interesting to find out what happened to the original White King (can someone ask Jim at the next con or whatever?)
Dspringer1 - what is the WOJ you are referring to?
kbrizzle:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 02:21:52 AM ---Not quite.By the text the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster. JB goes all Abrahamic with that bit. The White God is a jealous God. However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.
--- End quote ---
I think Murphy’s angel-possessed quote is supposed to be taken in the sense that the Red King & LoONs murdered & fed upon the actual deities present in the area (per Paranet Papers) - in this sense, they are not true gods (even though they demand to be worshipped as such) - just parasites who killed their host & took a portion of their power.
After all, I don’t think Uriel would call Odin or Hades a ‘false god’...
@Yuillegan
There is a quote from Ebenezer in BR when he admits to Harry that he was Maggie Sr.’s mentor & about being Blackstaff etc. where he tells Harry that Lord Raith’s ability to shrug off magic is what elevated him to the White throne - this implies that he wasn’t always the White King & may only have become King in the last few centuries.
It also seems like every court has Elders, the LoOns were just the Ramp version.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 07, 2019, 09:44:58 AM --- The mayan gods still have a considerable following but as far as I know do not get human sacrifices anymore.
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure that in the Dresdenverse, the LoON's get both human sacrifice (in ritual, magically-empowering ways) and regular Ramp-bloodsucking.
Or they did, before the end of Changes. 8)
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