The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Overall series questions

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morriswalters:

--- Quote from: g33k on August 21, 2019, 05:37:53 AM ---I find your arguments quite persuasive.  I did so before you made them, too!   ;)  I think "Nemfection" is a highly implausible & unsatisfactory answer.

I just... don't find much that IS plausible & satisfactory to explain Sarissa's choice of words.

I'm grasping at straws.

--- End quote ---
What exactly do you find implausible?

Mira:

--- Quote from: g33k on August 20, 2019, 06:37:55 PM ---It's worth mentioning here that "Dementia" isn't any particular disease, it's a descriptive suite of symptoms, with several known diseases &c that can cause it.
https://www.alz.org/alzheimers-dementia/what-is-dementia/types-of-dementia

I note that "a form of congenital dementia" (Sarissa's phrase) could -- without much regular-ol' faerie fact-stretching, let alone half-blooded free will & freedom-to-lie -- likely be stretched to cover Nemfection itself.

Maybe Sarissa was saying she was Nemfected, and Mab is holding it in check.

--- End quote ---

True, it describes a set of symptoms..  I doubt that Sarissa is infected.   What I find odd is on one hand Sarissa implies that of her two daughters, she is the favorite.  As in her and Mab did mother/daughter activities together which caused jealousy in Maeve... Now that could be only because it isn't appropriate activities for a Queen/Lady relationship..  Back to the original point, Sarissa may feel gratitude to her mother, but not resentment one would expect if Mab were holding the treatment over her to control her.

Kindler:
For Ghost Story, I view it like this:

Changes was all about blowing up Harry's life. He loses pretty much everything, and gains a daughter (the family he's been craving his entire life), but in a way sacrifices his relationship with her by giving her away. No job, no home, no lab, no magic equipment, no money to speak of, etc. Then it ends with him losing his life, too; that line about roasting marshmallows if the world burns was pretty much what he did to his own world during Changes. So we saw what Changes did to Harry.

Ghost Story, on the other hand, was all about what Changes did to everyone else. The choices that Harry had made from Storm Front all the way through Changes have come to a head. Murphy's jobless and barely holding together; the Alphas are bruisers for what amounts to a well-intentioned gang; the White Court, Marcone, and Harry's allies are doing what they can to hold onto Chicago; Molly has gone nutty and is trying to fill Harry's shoes the best she can; Bob and Butters have teamed up to help the Chicago Alliance; and Things Have Started to Fall Apart.

Molly in particular is important; this is where her relationship with Winter really begins. Lea is grooming her for Some Purpose.

But, basically, Changes was about what's important to Harry. Ghost Story is about how important Harry is to everyone else. It's a Wonderful Life is as good a metaphor as I can think of, except instead of "this is what would happen if you were never born," it's "here's what's happening since you died."

kbrizzle:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 21, 2019, 06:44:56 AM ---Kbrizzle: Why would Mother Winter let the White Council have it for a millennium? No idea. But who says she gets a choice? Maybe that was the deal? Or perhaps 1000 years to her isn't that long - compared to the many millennia she has been alive. We know she wants it back now - perhaps the deal is up and Eb hasn't returned it. Would be just Harry's luck to get the Blackstaff only to have to give it back.

Your notion that the Fae Mantles are the immortal pieces is essentially correct - that was the revelation of Cold Days. Whether the mantle itself can be destroyed truly is another question. Remember, it was implied Maeve could be "killed" outside of Halloween but would reform eventually. Only during a conjunction does the stasis of immortality become malleable. Only then could Maeve be killed, and the Mantle transferred.

But I do find the idea that the Mantles are essentially a structure of immortality that creates more choice for the immortal, essentially letting them have the best of both world, really intriguing. It makes a lot of sense actually, when the agents who are implied to have created/elevated the Fae into what they are currently were the Old Gods (such as the Greco-Roman and Norse etc). They might have resented the lack of Free Will their Power and Immortality gave them, and found a clever work-around.

And yes, that may also explain Mother Winter's poor health and ailments. Although at her power level surely she would be insulated from Mortal discomforts...perhaps that is the price of it. I can't wait to find out!

As for non-Fae beings, such as demons. Well we know that if they are pure spirit energy and form a physical body (like a ghost, or the toad demon) they dissolve in ectoplasm on death which eventually breaks down further. Normally the "respawn" in the Nevernever, but occasionally are killed outright (such as by the Swords of the Cross). If they are combo beings, like the Naagloshii or the River Folk, I suspect not. Although the River Folk are essentially somewhere between humanity and Fae. Angels and Fallen (not Denarians)? Probably too much spirit...and not sure they can die at all. Even from the Swords. But we will have to wait and see on that front. Bob gives the impression nothing really changes between immortals unless a conjunction happens (such as Chicago above Chicago in Summer Knight...although Jim has retconned a few things since then). As for monsters, demons, other Things...probably a case by case basis. Chimera and Cyclops? Probably ectoplasm. Sue with resurrected Flesh? Ectoplasm. Although if you summoned Sue from 65 million years ago with a Time Travel way/wormhole...probably full on corpse, same as us. Fomor should be interesting - we know they are related to the Fae and the Jotuns, and we know the Turtlenecks transhuman body parts turn to ectoplasm but their bodies stay as corpses, so it will probably be a case by case thing too.

I am curious to know what would happen if Spider-Man or a Jedi died in Dresdenverse, they are a part of the greater cosmology in a way yet are mortal. We will probably never get an in-text answer for copyright reasons, but it is fun to guess.

--- End quote ---
I do believe that mantles were created for this purpose - a mortal-ish creature is needed to channel the power of the mantle, since only mortals have free will necessary to accomplish this. In a way, it seems to be quite similar to holding a Denarius, although I’d imagine most mantles of note come with quite a few more limitations than a Coin. I wonder if this is why most of the Lady-level Fae royalty we’ve seen so far have been Changelings.
 
I guess my more central question about the Fae Courts is, if the holders of the royal mantles are immortal, why is there is a geriatric linear progression at all? Are the Ladies supposed to remain the way they are forever, or is their position also supposed to be an excellent training ground for the next Queen? Maiden -> Mother -> Crone would imply this. Especially since there also seems to be a commensurate decrease in humanity for the beaters of the mantles.

@Mira
This is why I’m curious about the terms of the bargain between Sarissa & Mab. While Sarissa does seem to like the mother-daughter/ humanity Sherpa things she does with Mab, she also wonders if Mab ordered Harry to kill her - showing that she does not much trust Mab.
Perhaps Mab is doing this with Sarissa to avoid what went wrong with Maeve? Maeve seemed to think that Mab didn’t love her.

@Kindler
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. I still wonder how necessary/ important it is to have that message in a whole case file. The couple of short stories set after Changes (like Aftermath) do a pretty good job of showing the effects of Harry’s death on his friends.
Most of the case files have Nemesis or the Black Council subtly in them, I can’t really spot it in this one. What I mean is that all the case files after GP show a very real threat to an existing supernatural power structure. DM has a change to the ranks of the KotC, BR is about an existential threat to the WCV etc. from 2 different angles, SmF is about corrupting the Archive etc. GS doesn’t really have this.
I guess one could argue that had Capiocorpus’ actions been allowed to go unchecked, he would’ve become ‘mortal’ again & allied with the Fomor, making Chicago firmly Fomor territory. All of Harry’s friends would’ve likely died, & I think Marcone & Lara would’ve been run out of town.

KurtinStGeorge:
As far as "Ghost Story" is concerned; first I want to say I don't like this novel very much, so what I'm about to say is an explanation, but not a defense of the novel.  Also, I'm not trying to be cheeky or making a joke here.  I am quite serious.

Whether Jim consciously thought about the parallel he was creating when he wrote Ghost Story is irrelevant, but in essence what Jim wrote was "It's a Wonderful Life - Harry Dresden."  Think about it.  If it's been a long time since you've seen the (overrated IMO) Christmas classic, or for some reason have never seen it, after Jimmy Stewart wishes he had never lived, an angel shows him what would have happened if that had been the case.  Spoiler Alert, everything and everyone J-J-Jimmy cared about went to sh*t without him.  That is (almost) exactly what happens in Ghost Story, except Harry made his wish with a bullet. (Also, Harry's attempted suicide wasn't going to change the past.)  However, after Harry disappears into the depths of Lake Michigan, Murphy becomes a vigilante murderer, Molly is on the point of a nervous breakdown, Thomas was a total wreck and the magical community of Chicago was under siege by the Fomor.  Harry's friends were barely hanging on and they had make deals with monsters and criminals in order to survive.

Ghost Story is not about Harry's journey in the novel.  Almost everything that happened, Harry saving Mort from Corpsetaker and Evil Bob, Harry helping  the teenage gang get away from the second rate sorcerer Aristedes, or even what Harry learned/remembered about Justin DuMorne and HWWB (Though I liked that part of the book and Harry's conversation with Lea in general.) is largely irrelevant to the major point of the story.  Ghost Story is about Harry learning what he means to his friends and the world at large.  Now Jim didn't hit his readers over the head with that message the way the movie did.  Plus, Harry wakes up having failed to escape from Mab, so it's a much darker ending than the movie; as if Jimmy Stewart found out he still had to spend a couple of years in jail, but that doesn't change the larger meaning of the novel.

Come December, go watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and then read or listen to the audio version of "Ghost Story."  You'll see exactly how right I am about this.

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