The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Overall series questions

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morriswalters:
Not everything is a nemfection.  There is an example of that kind of deal in the books already.  Harry's broken back.  It's exactly the way that Mab might control an asset.  Like Harry.  Or Sarissa.  And Maeve called Sarissa a spare.

kbrizzle:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 19, 2019, 02:27:53 AM ---7. Ah yes. Mother Winter. Why indeed would such a being need a walking stick? Or indeed a body? She is more equivalent to a star or blizzard on a thousand worlds. My guess? The "walking stick" is like the mantles, a part of her. Perhaps the physical representation of her ability to interact. Mother Summer always seems more mobile, and has no walking stick to speak of. When it comes to the Nevernever, and especially the Powers, I believe that we are entering the realms of metaphor as much a physical reality. Abstract concepts such as thoughts and time can have physical representations (which is really what the Mothers are, after all). Remember the Outer Gates - Harry's mind can only process so much so he boils them down into something as obvious and simplistic as those massive gates. He cannot experience reality in more than 3 or 4 dimensions. Same with when he was in Ghost Story, he can only experience a very limited view of reality. The Nevernever is very similar to the Immaterium of Warhammer 40K, where thoughts become reality. Jim used to play both types of Warhammer I believe, so I am not totally surprised.

So to get back to your question - why does she feel pain, or appear old etc? Because that is the best representation of WHAT she is, and how Mortal minds have shaped her. Consider the fact that Harry hurt her at all, and how both angry and insulted she was. Consider Uriel's reaction when Harry dropped the -el from his name. Mortal Free Will seems to have unlimited power in some deep ways...and Immortals hate it. Mortals can constantly redefine their reality, and of course themselves (to speak of one is to speak of the other really). Immortals have only the illusion of this. I suspect this is the crux of Lucifer's argument with God: Mortal's have unlimited power in a sense, and can change all of reality. Any mortal. All of them together...leads to a massive problem. Immortals were only given limited will (enough to act somewhat on their own - Jim has said Angel's at least had enough will to Fall) but cannot really change their own destinies. Why? No idea. Jim may have an answer for his series - but people have been trying to answer question like that forever. So this is why she feels pain from moving - she has perhaps lost the part of her power that allows her to interact more freely. Anyone would be upset by that - imagine if you lost your legs and then some fool tries to drag you out to him!

Sorry about the ridiculously long post, but you ask big questions!

--- End quote ---
This is an interesting notion - that the walking stick is an essential part of MW’s ability to interact with the mortal world. But if this were the case, why would she let the White Council have it for nearly a millennium? I can see her loaning it out to the WC for short periods like the Ramp war etc., but for ~1000 years when it severely impacts her mobility seems strange.

One other way of looking at this could be that Bob is wrong - the Fae Queens are not true immortals - their mantles are, but the holders of the mantles are not (which is why Lily, Aurora, Maeve, Mab’s predecessor, Mother Summer’s predecessor etc. have died). The very setup of the Fae courts mirrors human ages - the maiden, the mother & the crone - this implies change. The maiden becomes the mother & eventually the crone - this is a one-way linear progression, no matter how slow. Since the Fae Courts are set up as such, we can infer that these positions are not meant to be permanent but rather a series of ‘promotions’ should the holder be able to survive for long enough.

Other immortals like angels have no such progression built into their natures - their natures are to be static with little freedom of choice. Fae on the other hand are capable of relatively more ‘free will’. So perhaps the Fae Queens are extremely long lived but not actually immortal in the sense of angels etc. By this logic, Mother Winter is actually ancient & feels the ravages of time from her millennia long existence (kinda like how the Red King seemed to be devolving into a bloodthirsty dementia).

@g33k
I believe the definition of congenital is “present from birth”. Unless you are implying that Mab has been Nfected for a couple of hundred years now, that Nfection is capable of being passed on in this manner & that Maeve too has been Nfected since birth....

g33k:
I don't actually think Sarissa is (or was) Nemfected; just that she could be.  There could be a sort of Nemfection that targets specific opportunities, that "fits" with certain hosts.  If the specific suite of vulnerabilies matches Sarissa, she might call that "congenital".

I don't really think that's the issue... but her evasive manner makes me pretty sure it isn't anything we'd normally describe as "a congenital form of dementia," so I'm looking for other faerie-twisty things those words might describe...

g33k:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 21, 2019, 12:19:53 AM ---Not everything is a nemfection.  There is an example of that kind of deal in the books already.  Harry's broken back.  It's exactly the way that Mab might control an asset.  Like Harry.  Or Sarissa.  And Maeve called Sarissa a spare.
--- End quote ---
I find your arguments quite persuasive.  I did so before you made them, too!   ;)  I think "Nemfection" is a highly implausible & unsatisfactory answer.

I just... don't find much that IS plausible & satisfactory to explain Sarissa's choice of words.

I'm grasping at straws.

Yuillegan:
G33k: I think we can just accept that Sarissa owes Mab for protection and keeping her brain (relatively) sane and working. She went to Mab herself remember - that is pretty rare right there. Sarissa clearly learnt who her mother was, and what she was (to a point). She asked for the help, and accepted the deal. Whether it was a fair deal is qualitative, not quantitative.

Kbrizzle: Why would Mother Winter let the White Council have it for a millennium? No idea. But who says she gets a choice? Maybe that was the deal? Or perhaps 1000 years to her isn't that long - compared to the many millennia she has been alive. We know she wants it back now - perhaps the deal is up and Eb hasn't returned it. Would be just Harry's luck to get the Blackstaff only to have to give it back.

Your notion that the Fae Mantles are the immortal pieces is essentially correct - that was the revelation of Cold Days. Whether the mantle itself can be destroyed truly is another question. Remember, it was implied Maeve could be "killed" outside of Halloween but would reform eventually. Only during a conjunction does the stasis of immortality become malleable. Only then could Maeve be killed, and the Mantle transferred.

But I do find the idea that the Mantles are essentially a structure of immortality that creates more choice for the immortal, essentially letting them have the best of both world, really intriguing. It makes a lot of sense actually, when the agents who are implied to have created/elevated the Fae into what they are currently were the Old Gods (such as the Greco-Roman and Norse etc). They might have resented the lack of Free Will their Power and Immortality gave them, and found a clever work-around.

And yes, that may also explain Mother Winter's poor health and ailments. Although at her power level surely she would be insulated from Mortal discomforts...perhaps that is the price of it. I can't wait to find out!

As for non-Fae beings, such as demons. Well we know that if they are pure spirit energy and form a physical body (like a ghost, or the toad demon) they dissolve in ectoplasm on death which eventually breaks down further. Normally the "respawn" in the Nevernever, but occasionally are killed outright (such as by the Swords of the Cross). If they are combo beings, like the Naagloshii or the River Folk, I suspect not. Although the River Folk are essentially somewhere between humanity and Fae. Angels and Fallen (not Denarians)? Probably too much spirit...and not sure they can die at all. Even from the Swords. But we will have to wait and see on that front. Bob gives the impression nothing really changes between immortals unless a conjunction happens (such as Chicago above Chicago in Summer Knight...although Jim has retconned a few things since then). As for monsters, demons, other Things...probably a case by case basis. Chimera and Cyclops? Probably ectoplasm. Sue with resurrected Flesh? Ectoplasm. Although if you summoned Sue from 65 million years ago with a Time Travel way/wormhole...probably full on corpse, same as us. Fomor should be interesting - we know they are related to the Fae and the Jotuns, and we know the Turtlenecks transhuman body parts turn to ectoplasm but their bodies stay as corpses, so it will probably be a case by case thing too.

I am curious to know what would happen if Spider-Man or a Jedi died in Dresdenverse, they are a part of the greater cosmology in a way yet are mortal. We will probably never get an in-text answer for copyright reasons, but it is fun to guess.

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