Author Topic: Drakul is the third Walker  (Read 9096 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Drakul is the third Walker
« on: August 13, 2019, 12:18:17 AM »
I propose that it could be that Drakul is the third Walker (who might be called He Who Walks Between).

1. Drakul is something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child that wound up turning himself into the first Black Court vampire (around 600 years ago*). Ebenezar described him as "the Creature" and "Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel". Which is really something, considering all the stuff Ebenezar would have seen. Also notice the emphasis on "the".

2. The Black Court vampires are actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. The are not of the same ilk really as other vampires (compared to Reds in the quote - see bottom of post).

3. When Jim refers to things like Mordite and Outsiders (both in the novels and in interviews - he often decribes them as "not of this world" and "the Netherworld" etc. World here meaning the universe, not merely Earth. He also often describes the magic associated with them in the same way.

4. He is one of the few beings that could take out Mab.

5. Vlad Tepes (Dracula - the son of Drakul) was the King of Walachia roughly 600 years ago. Which means Mavra likely is one of the first Black Court Vampires (even if she wasn't one of the "Elders") - they would have definitely known each other. WOJ puts Mavra's age at around 600 years old.

So I think it is reasonable to think that Drakul has a strong connection to the Outside. But why specifically is he the Walker? Because of his nature. He seems to be described in terms of Other - not the regular levels of evil and monstrous. We know he is powerful enough to beat Mab. Something else that was not on that list that was as big and scary as Mab, but also hideously deeper, was Sharkface (He Who Walks Before). And there seems to be a strange connection between Mavra, the Black Court, the Black Council/The Circle, and the Outsiders.

The obvious counter-argument to my theory is why would he sign the accords? Shouldn't he and Mab be mortal enemies?
Well my answer is this - it is because he is Between. As in Between two worlds: this one and the Netherworld. A foot in each (a common trope in mythology). Unlike his fellows (Before and Behind) he is not truly immortal any more, perhaps a little more like Vadderung. He is trapped in human form, and that makes him vulnerable. So part of his cold war with Mab is he agreed to not take open action against her. Perhaps he resents being trapped, or left, in his human body. Perhaps he likes being in the mortal world (like Vadderung) and doesn't want to lose the influence he has. The openly horrific nature of the Walkers would be intolerable to the world (I believe there is a WOJ that HWWBh is at Uriel's level, in some ways). But as a somewhat mortal with unbelievable powers, yet still vulnerable, he can be flexible enough to work with. Almost like the Wyldfae, he is his own Power. Sure, when push comes to shove he will side with his own kind. Maybe he likes Reality now that he is in it, maybe he is pissed off at the Outsiders. But one thing is for sure - he is beyond the "usual evil".

Let me know what you think!

PS here is the quote
Quote
Black Court Vamps are a different story. They’re actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don’t really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don’t have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they’re basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.
And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.

2015 AMA

My only other theory is that he is the Son of the Devil (the Antichrist). Based on Blood Rites, p219. In that area Eb explains that he is the Blackstaff. He implies that Drakul is a scion (which Jim has since contradicted, see above). He is discussing that Scions are often freakishly powerful, insane malformed and monstrous, but occasionally look human. Which is how both Drakul and Kincaid look. Perhaps they are related. Kincaid (while he worked for Drakul was called the Hound of Hell or the Hellhound). One might take that to mean he is a servant of Hell. Which interestingly enough, some stories about the Antichrist mention a hellhound. It would fit that if an Archangel (Lucifer/Satan) had a child with a mortal, it would be an extraordinarily powerful scion (the most powerful Nephalim). But - as the above quote seems to contradict it (and is more recent 2015 AMA versus Blood rites in 2004) and we know Jim has retconned a lot of his original ideas - I think my first theory is more likely.

And no, I don't buy that Drakul is a Dragon. That is just too on the nose, even for Jim. It might have worked if Drakul was a scion, but he isn't anymore. I think that knowledge would be well known too - when Harry is mentioning who the Freeholding lords under the Unseelie Accord's are (White Night) when telling Murphy that he has bribed Marcone with becoming one, he mentions specifically that he has researched it and that there are two Dragons, Drakul, the Archive, the Ukrainian semi-immortal shapeshifting Guru, Vadderung. He specifically separates the Dragons from Drakul.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 12:55:01 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline Maz

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 01:01:26 PM »
Not sure I agree with this overall but we do have in-book reference in White Night whereby there is a connection between Outsiders and the Black Court.  It /would/ make sense that Drakul is at least an Outsider trapped on our side and that his scion used his Outsider related power to create the Black Court.

"After which, were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell is going on."

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2019, 12:39:34 AM »
And no, I don't buy that Drakul is a Dragon. That is just too on the nose, even for Jim. It might have worked if Drakul was a scion, but he isn't anymore. I think that knowledge would be well known too - when Harry is mentioning who the Freeholding lords under the Unseelie Accord's are (White Night) when telling Murphy that he has bribed Marcone with becoming one, he mentions specifically that he has researched it and that there are two Dragons, Drakul, the Archive, the Ukrainian semi-immortal shapeshifting Guru, Vadderung. He specifically separates the Dragons from Drakul.

Yeah, I think there was a WOJ about the other Dragon having domain over fire (Pyrovax?). And while one can never be entirely sure who of the higher powers might be one guy wearing two hats, it seems unlikely in this case.

Not everything unworldly is a Walker, though. He could be a peer of them from before the current creation but who isn't loyal to the Old Ones the outsiders and the walkers are trying to wake / free either.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2019, 03:22:58 AM »
Not sure I agree with this overall but we do have in-book reference in White Night whereby there is a connection between Outsiders and the Black Court.  It /would/ make sense that Drakul is at least an Outsider trapped on our side and that his scion used his Outsider related power to create the Black Court.

Yeah fair enough - there is certainly not enough empirical evidence that Drakul is a Walker, hence why it is still a theory. But his connection to the Outsiders, and his mystery, are strong enough I think to build a good theory around. In fact there a many in-text references to connections between the Black Court and Outsiders, not just White Night! Blood Rites for one, when Ebenezar is explaining who Drakul is and his difference from his half-human son Dracula. Eb goes on to say that Dracula went to join the Black Court as a teenage rebellion. As Jim got older and revised/retconned/forgot his old ideas Drakul no longer became a scion (half human, half immortal) only Dracula (his son) was the scion and seems to have turned himself into the first Black Court Vampire (rather than merely joining them).

Yeah, I think there was a WOJ about the other Dragon having domain over fire (Pyrovax?). And while one can never be entirely sure who of the higher powers might be one guy wearing two hats, it seems unlikely in this case.


Yeah Pyrovax (fire) and Ferrovax (metal) are the two remaining Dragons - there is a WOJ on this. So it seems logical that they are the two Freeholding lords that are Dragons (indeed Ferrovax is implied to be one). I did consider whether their might be a masks/mantles situation going on but I think Outsiders don't do masks/mantles. They change depending on which universe they are trying to enter (almost as if they have no Free Will in which to choose who they will be... *wink wink, nudge nudge*)

Not everything unworldly is a Walker, though. He could be a peer of them from before the current creation but who isn't loyal to the Old Ones the outsiders and the walkers are trying to wake / free either.


Yeah true. I wondered about that also - if he is some other being from before Creation. One wonders about TWG in relation to Outsiders too, did he come from the same place as the Outsiders? In that case, is he an Outsider too? Or something else entirely... Bit of a rabbit hole to go down!

I think the difficulty with defining Drakul is from his lack of information about him. Especially about what he wants, what he is doing, what he has done. All we know is that he is incredibly powerful and cruel, and no one wants to mess with him. And that his son tried to impress him by creating the Black Court - which it didn't impress him much.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 06:01:27 PM »
Hmm, given the name Drakul, I think it more likely that he is an Nfected Dragon who was trapped in human form as a way of containment. Dracula’s attempt to break out was tainted by Nemesis, which was the ritual that created the BCV.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2019, 08:01:22 PM »
The Devil is occasionally referred to as a serpent in biblical lore, based on the whole Eden thing.

And a Dragon is just Greek for a serpent.

So, to me, a Hellish connection makes sense. Of course we are sure Lucifer himself is not wholely trapped (or Small Favor could not have happened), but it could be another major-league Fallen Angel (one of the Watchers/Grigori maybe?)

Mind, it has the downside of not explaining the Black Court/Outsider connection, but it explains the name which the Outsider theory does not.

Though with some further work, it is possible to pin the Outsider angle in there - the Watchers taught men forbidden lore, and what is more forbidden than knowledge of the Outside?

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 02:19:44 AM »
Hmm, given the name Drakul, I think it more likely that he is an Nfected Dragon who was trapped in human form as a way of containment. Dracula’s attempt to break out was tainted by Nemesis, which was the ritual that created the BCV.

But White Night implies that Drakul is NOT a Dragon - Dresden specifically separates him from the other two Dragons that are Freeholding Lords. Not to mention, it is too obvious. Think about it, it isn't like Ferrovax is referred to as Ferrovax the Dragon, or simply "Dragon"...he is called Ferrovax. As some have pointed out, in historical terms Vlad Dracul was given that name as he was made a Knight of the Order of the Dragon. While I can understand why the Outsiders might want a Nfected Dragon, why would they trap him in human form? The Outsiders are pretty cruel but they tend to utilise their assets towards furthering their goal of destroying reality. Having a weakened asset just for kicks seems...unusual. If not outright foolish.

The Devil is occasionally referred to as a serpent in biblical lore, based on the whole Eden thing.

And a Dragon is just Greek for a serpent.

So, to me, a Hellish connection makes sense. Of course we are sure Lucifer himself is not wholely trapped (or Small Favor could not have happened), but it could be another major-league Fallen Angel (one of the Watchers/Grigori maybe?)

Mind, it has the downside of not explaining the Black Court/Outsider connection, but it explains the name which the Outsider theory does not.

Though with some further work, it is possible to pin the Outsider angle in there - the Watchers taught men forbidden lore, and what is more forbidden than knowledge of the Outside?

Indeed, makes a good alternate theory. Why couldn't have Small Favor happened? Drakul by no means seems to be weak (he terrifies Ebenezar - just think about that, the guy who did the Tunguska Event, New Madrid, Krakatoa...) So if he were Lucifer, I see no reason why him being trapped in human form would limit him. Uriel giving Michael his Grace was not the same as Falling - Uriel specifically mentions that he is merely loaning his Grace to Michael and should Michael abuse that Power, Uriel would Fall. We don't really know what that would mean in terms of Power, but we do know it hasn't seemed to limit Lucifer's Power much (hence providing the power for Thorned Namshiel ritual in SmF). I see no reason Drakul being Lucifer means he couldn't use his power.

But yes, the Lucifer-theory has the drawback of not explaining the Outsider connection well enough. Hence why I think Drakul is an Outsider trapped in a human body. And when I think of Outsider characters...there are not many by name. So He Who Walks Between seemed to work.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 02:43:39 PM »
I've assumed Drakul was a former Outsider who got stuck here during the chaos of the last time the Gates turned over (Hastings, in my opinion). The Changing of the Guard is a good time to try an attack, I'd think.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 05:16:52 PM »
I like the theory that Drakul is an Oustider trapped in human form. We really can't know until we get more information, but it's fun anyway.

Offline Elequosoraptor

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 07:35:38 PM »
Here's some more evidence about the Black Court not fitting with the rest of the game. Free will is a constant theme in the series and its integral to any shift from human to other. Scions, white, and red court vampires all have an aspect of free choice before they change. So do wizards in fact though it's broader in that case. But black court vampires are a glaring exception. If you're turned you're turned. Its a violation of free will, an extension or subset of necromancy. If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. Murder, murder through forced animal tranformation, time travel, enthralling others and invading minds, necromancy, these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2019, 05:49:19 AM »
But White Night implies that Drakul is NOT a Dragon - Dresden specifically separates him from the other two Dragons that are Freeholding Lords. Not to mention, it is too obvious. Think about it, it isn't like Ferrovax is referred to as Ferrovax the Dragon, or simply "Dragon"...he is called Ferrovax. As some have pointed out, in historical terms Vlad Dracul was given that name as he was made a Knight of the Order of the Dragon. While I can understand why the Outsiders might want a Nfected Dragon, why would they trap him in human form? The Outsiders are pretty cruel but they tend to utilise their assets towards furthering their goal of destroying reality. Having a weakened asset just for kicks seems...unusual. If not outright foolish.
Hmm you seem to misunderstand my theory. My WAG is that Drakul was originally a Dragon who got Nfected - he was trapped in human form by the good guys - this was likely the only way they would’ve been able to contain him, obviously to the detriment of the Outsiders (which is why they haven’t succeeded).
I also wouldn’t take Harry’s offhand categorization in WN as gospel about the nature of Drakul. But I suppose it’s possible that now that he’s ‘human’, Drakul no longer counts as a Dragon. Also, I doubt Drakul is his real name.

Drakul being an Outsider trapped as a human seems incongruous - i don’t think Outsiders have the capacity for free will like humans do - indeed we don’t even know if Outsiders are capable of taking human form - they have never mimicked another creature from the mortal world in the series so far (& they don’t really need to, thanks to Nemesis).
Also, I imagine Outsiders are next to impossible to kill, especially on our world, so even when they are vanquished (like 16 yr old Harry vs. HWWB),  they likely just ‘re-spawn’ in the Outside again. So why wouldn’t human trapped Drakul just kill himself & re-spawn?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2019, 05:52:02 PM »
If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. ... time travel ... these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.

I'm not sure I follow.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2019, 05:29:35 AM »
Kindler: Maybe so! That would fit nicely, but sadly we have so little information about that time not much more we can add. Still I like it - it has the right flavor of things.

Bad Alias: I am 90% sure Drakul is an Outsider. Which one is the question - but I am a bit less certain on who. I can't imagine he is some nobody Outsider, but probably not an Old One (they seem to be rather Apocalyptic and altogether insane), so the third Walker seemed a good fit. But who knows!

Here's some more evidence about the Black Court not fitting with the rest of the game. Free will is a constant theme in the series and its integral to any shift from human to other. Scions, white, and red court vampires all have an aspect of free choice before they change. So do wizards in fact though it's broader in that case. But black court vampires are a glaring exception. If you're turned you're turned. Its a violation of free will, an extension or subset of necromancy. If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. Murder, murder through forced animal tranformation, time travel, enthralling others and invading minds, necromancy, these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.

Great stuff there! An excellent observation - the Black Court vampires get zero choice about what they will be. Indeed, there have been some hints that Black Court vampires are essentially somewhere between reanimated corpses and controlled spectres. Perhaps a melding of the two. They have more Will than the average undead spook, and yet are very much enthralled to their sires. Harry even notices that Mavra isn't really a "she". It is an "It" a animated monster, but nothing really living or human or gendered about it. It begets some serious implications on how the Outsiders work. You will notice that apart from their terrifying speed, strength and general toughness - they can both invade and enthrall mortal minds (violating Free Will) by creating both Thralls and Renfields. They also seem to be able to to this to animals. Beyond that - turning into smoke or even other animals suggest a level of tranformation not normally possible. Plus they seemingly can become Wizard-level talents over time - but their magic is horrible and disruptive (especially to other dead things). Their abilities seem to match up to several of the Laws of Magic. Obviously a botched job creating them though, as they are so full of spirit energy they are massively vulnerable in certain areas. Fire, Sunlight both disrupt magic. Decapitation is commonly used to dispatch the undead. Holy Water - suggests a certain spiritual connection to the antithesis of Heaven. Garlic is unusal...not sure how Jim will work that in. But it fits the lore. And of course - they cannot flat stick cross a threshold without permission. While many beings suffer from the threshold problem, only Outsiders seemed to be similarly hampered. If we consider the borders of Faerie as the threshold of reality, and the Outer Gates as the front door, the situation is very similar.

Actually I think all the Laws of Magic are about Free Will. Including the 7th. When you reach beyond the Outer Gates, you might violate your own Free Will and potentially another's (as we don't know the mechanics of reaching beyond the Outer Gates) perhaps you have to sacrifice someone. Or of course the fact that while you are exercising your Free Will to invite them in, you risk all of Humanity's Free Will when they are here.

Bad Alias: Time Travel overrides Free Will by creating problems in the time lines perhaps, you are enforcing your will over the destinies of others. But that is only one such possibility.

Kbrizzle: Well that is true, I did misunderstand who might have trapped him in your theory. I certainly think it is more likely the good guys trapped him than the bad, on that we agree. It is certainly possible he is a trapped Nfected Dragon. But which Dragon then? Not Ferro (metal) or Pyro (Fire) or Sirio (Lightning/Air/Earth) for certain. Leaves only Water and Wood. And WOJ is that there are only two left, when Michael killed Siriothrax he only left two remaining. I just don't see big bad Drakul as the Dragon of Water or Wood. I suppose yes it isn't gospel (Harry's categorization) but since Jim has confirmed it in interviews, it does feel pretty solid.

I am sure Drakul isn't his real name...but why label yourself "Dragon" if you were hiding? Or had stopped being one when becoming human? Why would anyone label you that way either?

But as you yourself have guessed, the Outsider in question may not have had a choice in becoming human. Whoever trapped him was not giving him the option. Quite right that they never have mimicked Mortals, they hate being constrained and don't really need to. However, as you say, trapping him might have been the best his foes could hope for (think Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith - she couldn't kill him but she could slow him down).

A very good question! If you kill the Outsider and they just respawn in the Outside - why wouldn't Drakul just suicide? I think the clue is in the wording: "He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form". This is why. He cannot leave his mortal body even via death, or perhaps on his death he will be truly destroyed.  Either way he is stuck. As one redditor mentioned, this has similarities to Lovecraft's Magnum Opus "The Shadow Out Of Time". Which as we know, Lovecraft was killed for his knowledge. In a the book, a being that can travel through space and time invades and posses the mind of a man and they swap roles. The man experiences life in prehistory, and the alien experiences life in the man's present. The problem is for these creatures, they become trapped in the bodies of people trying to avoid more horrible entities.

Finally, I would like to point out here and elsewhere that the Devil connection is probably wrong. Drakul has been around for 600 years...and the Antichrist is meant to show up during the End of Days. Seems like the End of Days has not yet happened...as evidenced by it all still existing. If he is the Devil himself - similar to the World of Darkness rpg - why is he still in command of Hell? General's who abandon their armies for too long tend not to be in charge.

Also according to WOJ the Devil wants reality. He is apart of our world. Outsiders, on the other hand, do not. They have no limits.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 01:10:34 AM »
People across the world have thought garlic guarded them against various dangers for thousands of years. http://americanfolklore.net/folklore/2010/10/garlic_superstitions_folklore.html

I'm not sold on time travel violates free will. I mean, sure, maybe, but it would also give everyone the opportunity to choose again, increasing free will.

To play Devil's Advocate on the Anti-Christ theory, pun intended, Drakul could be an Anti-Christ as opposed to the Anti-Christ.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Drakul is the third Walker
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 03:25:12 AM »
Bad Alias: Interesting take on the Garlic theory...not sure why they are affected more than others though.

Well true enough, if we could all Time Travel, we all would have pretty good options. We are getting into the realm between physics and metaphysics here. But I think it all depends on whether there is ONE timeline, ONE destiny or SEVERAL. And if there are many, what does that mean about our choices? WOJ is that each choice spins off another alternate reality (much like some real world physics theories), and so each choice is therefore extremely significant. Which means even ONE rewrite whilst creating many more options, would obliterate others. The original special timeline (in the continuum of timelines) would not exist, as new ones replaced it. That in and of itself overrules other's Free Will. But now we are getting into ethics and philosophy.

Someone much brainier than I but I forget who pointed out that if we could travel back in time, we would do so endlessly, reliving the past and correcting our mistakes, which is probably an excellent reason we cannot and indeed should not. Why move forward at all? How can you? It would be an endless loop.

:D Good pun! And a reasonable alternative. However, how many Antichrists does one need to have an apocalypse? What do you do with the spares, the failures, the rejects? And still, if the Antichrists purpose is to turn the people away from God and bring forth the End Times, why is Drakul taking so long? If I were the Devil I would be pretty mad myself, and probably would have done something earlier. Although, I am pretty sure all those Angels are looking at the Macro-perspective as well as the Micro (including the Fallen) and therefore there are timelines and realities where the Devil has won. Food for thought!