The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Short Story
Mira:
--- Quote ---I genuinely do not understand how people would want to be in his head for a 30 page story.
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I agree, unless perhaps to hear what Andriel is whispering in his ear and what Andriel is hearing as he spies about..
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I mean, this way it's clear that was the plan. If it got fixed two books later, that would not have been clear -- and it would have seemed, to at least some in the readership, like Jim had intended it to be broken forever, but chickened out and reversed course.
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And what I'm saying is, it was clear to me from moment one, when the Sword broke, that it was Jim's plan to fix it. And that fixing it at the end of the book the way he did made it look, to me, like Jim had intended for us to see the consequences of it breaking and characters trying to fix it over a few books, but then chickened out and reversed course by fixing it right away.
--- Quote ---Because -- shock and awe -- Jim is not writing a book series where the badguys win and his main protagonist turns evil.
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Yes, obviously.
--- Quote ---But the point remains -- we saw the whole, "Tempted by the coin and the power it represents" through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, for characters who make no sense whatsoever picking up a coin is just redundant and pointless.
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That's like saying, "we've already seen the whole 'tempted by Winter's mantle and the power it represents' through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, by having Molly become the Winter Lady, is just redundant and pointless."
--- Quote ---Of all Harry's inner circle, he was the most susceptible to the coins' power. Everyone else is smart enough to know it's not worth it.
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Thomas.
--- Quote ---I imagine he might have been happier not being crippled for life. If it wasn't for the Denarians' plot, he wouldn't have gotten injured.
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Ah. I don't seem to have been clear here. When I said "that's explicitly Michael's happy ending," I didn't mean that I think that it's Michael's happy ending, I meant that we have WoJ that it is Michael's happy ending. This way he gets to spend time with his family, instead of always leaving for his job or getting killed.
--- Quote ---Jim has already said more or less that Murphy is spending Peace Talks still in recovery.
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Okay. I hadn't seen that.
--- Quote ---They were a person who died, so yes? This seems super callous. Does it only count as murder if they "mattered" as a person?
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Well, it's a book series rather than real life, so yeah.
--- Quote ---That brings up another point. Jim has said he can't really do a story from Mouse's perspective because he knows too much.
If that's the case, Nicodemus would know way too much.
Also, again -- irredeemably evil shitbag who literally thrives on the pain and suffering of innocent people and whose idea of a second honeymoon is killing off 1/3 of Europe.
I genuinely do not understand how people would want to be in his head for a 30 page story.
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I don't need to be inside his head for it. I just feel like Nicodemus doesn't feel like a threat right now, which is upsetting to me because he's my favorite villain.
And we know that Nicodemus isn't such a bad guy that he and Harry couldn't have done the frenemies thing the way Harry and Mab are, because there's WoJ that if Harry had picked up Lasciel's coin in Changes, which was a real possibility, that would have happened.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on June 29, 2019, 06:34:26 PM ---And what I'm saying is, it was clear to me from moment one, when the Sword broke, that it was Jim's plan to fix it. And that fixing it at the end of the book the way he did made it look, to me, like Jim had intended for us to see the consequences of it breaking and characters trying to fix it over a few books, but then chickened out and reversed course by fixing it right away.
--- End quote ---
A book is a single, coherent work. It's intended to be a single thing. He's not writing and publishing it piecemeal so that he has to be like, "Wait, shit, I don't want it to be broken, I'll have to fix it in the last chapter."
It's just less credible that he'd "chicken out" midway through writing it. If he had "chickened out" about breaking it midway through the book, then he still obviously has time to just, you know, go back and not break it.
--- Quote ---That's like saying, "we've already seen the whole 'tempted by Winter's mantle and the power it represents' through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, by having Molly become the Winter Lady, is just redundant and pointless."
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Molly's mantle is a different beast -- for a start, it works differently. It's giving her very different urges, and it got into her in a very different way.
More importantly? It was a consequence of her choices that made sense with her character.
Picking up a Denarian coin does not make a single lick of sense for anyone else Harry knows.
--- Quote ---Thomas.
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Who took all of one sentence from Harry to agree that it was a terrible idea to even consider it.
--- Quote ---Ah. I don't seem to have been clear here. When I said "that's explicitly Michael's happy ending," I didn't mean that I think that it's Michael's happy ending, I meant that we have WoJ that it is Michael's happy ending. This way he gets to spend time with his family, instead of always leaving for his job or getting killed.
--- End quote ---
I'm aware of that. The fact remains, he needed to be permanently crippled to have a "happy ending" because of the Denarians. It's still a consequence of their actions that has lasting effect on the series and on Michael.
--- Quote ---Well, it's a book series rather than real life, so yeah.
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So, the Darkhallow succeeding and wiping out Chicago would only have mattered because Thomas and the Alphas lived there? The deaths in White Night only mattered because eventually Harry learned their names?
They matter. Harry is out to protect Chicago, not just those parts of it he knows personally. And in that case? He failed. Not even because he didn't get there in time, but because he took sadistic pleasure in punishing his opponent. An innocent person died because of his actions.
--- Quote ---I don't need to be inside his head for it. I just feel like Nicodemus doesn't feel like a threat right now, which is upsetting to me because he's my favorite villain.
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Every story in Dresden is in the first-person. If the story was about Nicodemus, he'd be the viewpoint and first-person character.
I disagree that he doesn't feel like a threat. "His plan is stopped" doesn't mean he isn't a threat; it means that his plans are threatening enough to be worth stopping.
--- Quote ---And we know that Nicodemus isn't such a bad guy that he and Harry couldn't have done the frenemies thing the way Harry and Mab are, because there's WoJ that if Harry had picked up Lasciel's coin in Changes, which was a real possibility, that would have happened.
--- End quote ---
That's not because Nicodemus isn't that bad.
It's because picking up Lasciel's coin would have made Harry worse than he is now.
Why do you think Jim didn't go that route? He's even said that it would have ended up being a much darker series, with much worse consequences, for Molly in particular.
Seriously, Nicodemus literally gains power by torturing and murdering innocent people. His reaction to his plan failing is to kill innocent children and force their mother to watch them burn to death. He kidnapped a 12-year-old girl to torture and brainwash.
And that's just the stuff we know about.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---A book is a single, coherent work. It's intended to be a single thing. He's not writing and publishing it piecemeal so that he has to be like, "Wait, shit, I don't want it to be broken, I'll have to fix it in the last chapter."
It's just less credible that he'd "chicken out" midway through writing it. If he had "chickened out" about breaking it midway through the book, then he still obviously has time to just, you know, go back and not break it.
--- End quote ---
You know, I'm not actually saying that I'm right and you're wrong here. I'm saying, "well, you may feel one way about it, but I feel a different way--it's not so clear-cut."
--- Quote ---Molly's mantle is a different beast -- for a start, it works differently. It's giving her very different urges, and it got into her in a very different way.
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure each Fallen in its coin works differently, too. They are each individuals, after all.
--- Quote ---More importantly? It was a consequence of her choices that made sense with her character.
Picking up a Denarian coin does not make a single lick of sense for anyone else Harry knows.
--- End quote ---
I disagree. Even apart from Thomas (who I'll talk about below) I can see Murphy getting tricked/coerced into taking up a coin. It would fit her character arc: in Small Favor, she talks about her faith in the law and how it hurts everyone to break it, in a manner reminiscent of the way Michael talks-->by Ghost Story, she's in a much darker place and disregarding the law-->at the end of Cold Days she say's she'll follow Harry down whatever dark road he chooses to take-->in Skin Game, she makes it clear that she'll do just about anything for Harry and to keep Harry safe, and gets the Sword broken as a result, and is also permanently injured-->I can easily see a situation where Murphy, worn down and feeling helpless, ends up taking up a coin because she thinks it's the only way to save Harry.
--- Quote ---Who took all of one sentence from Harry to agree that it was a terrible idea to even consider it.
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Except he didn't really mean it, because Harry had to talk him out of it later. And then there was the thing with the Skinwalker convincing him that he's a monster, which we still haven't seen too many consequences from, and his reaction to Harry's suicide (which seems really clearly to have reinforced the "monster" thing for him), and now Justine is dying because she's pregnant with his child...
And Thomas hasn't been particularly affected by any of the Denarian stuff, so he wouldn't have the same reaction to the concept that the people who have been hurt by it would.
--- Quote ---I'm aware of that. The fact remains, he needed to be permanently crippled to have a "happy ending" because of the Denarians. It's still a consequence of their actions that has lasting effect on the series and on Michael.
--- End quote ---
But it's not a negative consequence, which is what I'm talking about.
--- Quote ---So, the Darkhallow succeeding and wiping out Chicago would only have mattered because Thomas and the Alphas lived there? The deaths in White Night only mattered because eventually Harry learned their names?
They matter. Harry is out to protect Chicago, not just those parts of it he knows personally. And in that case? He failed. Not even because he didn't get there in time, but because he took sadistic pleasure in punishing his opponent. An innocent person died because of his actions.
--- End quote ---
She was a throw-away character that doesn't get mentioned in any scene except the one she dies in. Harry doesn't even ever reflect on "that one girl he got killed because he was using hellfire" when he's talking to Michael about Lasciel at the end of that book (or anywhere else in that book), much less in any other books.
It's like, Harry's neighbors almost certainly can't watch tv, or use computers, without them breaking because Harry lives in the same apartment building as them. And I don't even want to think about how much they probably have to spend replacing cell phones. Or about things like hot showers and light bulbs. Harry is almost certainly making their lives worse by a fair amount. But that doesn't matter, because we don't see it in the books.
--- Quote ---Every story in Dresden is in the first-person. If the story was about Nicodemus, he'd be the viewpoint and first-person character.
--- End quote ---
The story could have Nicodemus in it without it being from his perspective.
--- Quote ---I disagree that he doesn't feel like a threat. "His plan is stopped" doesn't mean he isn't a threat; it means that his plans are threatening enough to be worth stopping.
--- End quote ---
He's not threatening the way Mab is, or the way the Fomor are, or the way the Red Court was. Because those guys win occasionally, and Nicodemus never does. That's the kind of victory I'm talking about. I mean, if there was even some mention of "so-and-so isn't available to help right now, because Nicodemus managed to *insert something nasty here* and they're busy doing damage control," or "Sanya's in the hospital--he tried to stop Nicodemus from doing *something nasty* and got a grenade tossed through the window of his hotel room for his trouble," I'd be happier. But he can't even seem to win offscreen.
--- Quote ---That's not because Nicodemus isn't that bad.
It's because picking up Lasciel's coin would have made Harry worse than he is now.
Why do you think Jim didn't go that route? He's even said that it would have ended up being a much darker series, with much worse consequences, for Molly in particular.
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Jim has explicitly said that Harry went with Mab because she was the most reliable evil, not the lesser evil. And Molly would deal with worse consequences because of who her father is--if her father were the Summer Knight, then she would be dealing with worse consequences because Harry went with Mab.
--- Quote ---Seriously, Nicodemus literally gains power by torturing and murdering innocent people. His reaction to his plan failing is to kill innocent children and force their mother to watch them burn to death. He kidnapped a 12-year-old girl to torture and brainwash.
And that's just the stuff we know about.
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You forgot about the Black Plague (although, fun fact, my high school history class said that the Black Plague was actually one of the major factor in causing the Renaissance, which drastically improved people's lives... ;D )
And Mab and Lea have done stuff that is comparable.
Please note, I'm not saying that Nicodemus isn't evil. I'm saying that, from my perspective, he looks less like a "doing evil for fun" kind of guy, and more like what happens when you take an "ends justify the means" kind of guy and give him the ability to gain power by causing suffering, then wait 2000 years. His "ends" could be completely benevolent, irregardless of how evil his "means" make him.
Mira:
--- Quote ---You forgot about the Black Plague (although, fun fact, my high school history class said that the Black Plague was actually one of the major factor in causing the Renaissance, which drastically improved people's lives... ;D )
--- End quote ---
The plague hit on and off all through the Renaissance... Improvement in the weather pattern also helped, meant more food, the people got stronger and healthier, which meant they could use their minds for a bit more than mere survival, that is what brought on the Renaissance..
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