Would the Knights have gone after the Denarians in the beginning of SmF if...

[nadia.skylark]

...Harry hadn't touched Lasciel's coin?

Because the main objection they had was that they couldn't just hunt down Denarians pre-emptively--but at that point, hunting down where the Denarians were hiding would constitute a rescue mission. So I'm wondering how much their concern that Harry was leading them into a trap factored in.

[Con]

I mean Michael's family the Carpenters were attacked by Gruffs, so that pretty much meant their inclusion. But yes the Knights were concerned about Harry, as the conversation about "Harry where is your blasting rod?" was pretty much all about that.

[morriswalters]

While Michael may distrust Harry it is the idea of murdering without waning that Michael is against.

“Guys,” I said, “I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he’s here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he’ll tear us apart.”
“Agreed,” Sanya said firmly. “Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike.”
Michael shook his head. “Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen.”

“You want to talk to them?” I asked Michael. “You’ve got to be kidding me.”
“I didn’t say that,” Michael replied. “But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It’s a solution, Harry. But it isn’t good enough.

[nadia.skylark]

While Michael may distrust Harry it is the idea of murdering without waning that Michael is against.

Yeah, but he could just say, "I'll help you rescue Marcone, but I'm not going to just kill the Denarians we meet--they must be given a chance to find redemption."

[Con]

Isn't that what he did?

[Mira]

Isn't that what he did?

Yup, and that is the difficult concept for would be Holy Knights and non-Holy Knights to grasp..  It is the concept that tripped up Murphy...

[Con]

Hmmm yeah Butters grappling with his Knighthood duties was a fun part of his short story.

[nadia.skylark]

Isn't that what he did?

No, he refused to go out looking for them.

[morriswalters]

No, he refused to go out looking for them.

No.

[nadia.skylark]

No.

You're mistaken; here's the quote (bolding mine):

"So," I said, "I think we've got to move fast, and get Marcone away from them before he's forced to join up."

Michael frowned and folded his broad, work-scarred hands on the table before him. "What makes you think he's going to tell them no?"

"Marcone's scum," I said. "But he's his own scum. He doesn't work for anyone."

...

"Guys," I said, "I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he's here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he'll tear us apart."

"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."

Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen." 

...

Michael smiled, but it was brief and strained. "My point is that we can undertake such an aggressive move in only the direst of circumstances."

"Faerie stands poised on the brink of an internal war," I said. "Which would probably reignite the war between the Council and the Vampire Courts--and in the bad guys' favor, I might add. One of the most dangerous men I've ever known is about to have involuntary access to the knowledge and power of a Fallen angel, which would give the Denarians access to major influence within the United States. Not to mention the serious personal consequences for me if they succeed in making it happen." I looked back and forth between the two Knights, and held up one hand straight over my head. "I vote dire. All in favor?"

Michael caught Sanya's hand on the way up, and pushed it gently back down to the table. "This isn't a democracy, Harry. We serve a King."

It seems pretty clear to me in this that Michael refuses to hunt down the Denarians (as opposed to agreeing, but qualifying it by saying that he's not giving up on the Knights' "redemption first" policy, and that as such he's not going to go straight to trying to kill them) even after it is pointed out to him that they have kidnapped Marcone and are planning to force him to take up a coin.

[morriswalters]

Still no.  Quit looking at Michael and look at what Harry is saying. After your quote there is some back and forth, then Harry calls the Council and gets them to call in the Archive. It's a very well written passage.

“You confused him,” Sanya rumbled.
I glanced at the dark-skinned Knight. “What?”
“You confused him,” Sanya repeated. “Because of what you did.”
“What? Lying to the Council? I don’t see that I had much choice.”
“But you did,” Sanya said placidly. He reached into the gym bag on the floor next to him and drew out a long saber, an old cavalry weapon—Esperacchius. A nail worked into the hilt declared it a brother of Michael’s sword. He started inspecting the blade. “You could have simply moved to attack them.”
“By myself? I’m bad, but I’m not that bad.”
“He’s your friend. He would have come with you. You know that.”
I shook my head. “He’s my friend. Period. You don’t do that to your friends.”
“Precisely,” Sanya said. “So instead you have placed your own life in jeopardy in order to protect his beliefs. You risk your body to preserve his heart.” He brought out a smooth sharpening stone and began stropping the saber’s blade. “I suppose he considers it a particularly messianic act.”

[nadia.skylark]

The only thing your quote establishes is that Michael is willing to fight to aid and protect Harry. It says nothing about him being willing to rescue Marcone if Harry doesn't force the situation.

[morriswalters]

Okay then.

[Mira]

It seems pretty clear to me in this that Michael refuses to hunt down the Denarians (as opposed to agreeing, but qualifying it by saying that he's not giving up on the Knights' "redemption first" policy, and that as such he's not going to go straight to trying to kill them) even after it is pointed out to him that they have kidnapped Marcone and are planning to force him to take up a coin.

It is the hardest thing to grasp and why not everyone is cut out to be a Holy Knight.  Yes, they fight evil, yes, they will kill a Denarian if they have to, but they do not go out on seek and destroy missions..   Sanya is clearly willing to, but his background is a bit different than Michael's.  Michael has to remind them what their mission as Knights is.

"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."

Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen."

Free will still applies,  Michael isn't going to try and rescue Marcone to preventhim from taking up a coin..  Actually I don't know if it has been established that one can be forced to do that.. But if Marcone were to take up a coin, then Michael would do everything he could to get him to give it up.

[nadia.skylark]

It is the hardest thing to grasp and why not everyone is cut out to be a Holy Knight.  Yes, they fight evil, yes, they will kill a Denarian if they have to, but they do not go out on seek and destroy missions..   Sanya is clearly willing to, but his background is a bit different than Michael's.  Michael has to remind them what their mission as Knights is.

And apparently they don't do rescue missions either, despite the fact that in both Death Masks and Changes they do do rescue missions. It is an inconsistency, unless there is something else going on. I posit that the 'something else' is Michael's distrust of Harry.

Free will still applies,  Michael isn't going to try and rescue Marcone to preventhim from taking up a coin..

Why not? Shiro went to rescue Harry from Nicodemus when he was basically in the same situation as Marcone was--i.e. "take up a coin or else."

Here's an analogy: You know that a bunch of terrorists are going to blow up a bomb in an airport. There are no authorities you can call. Do you:
A) Try to kill/arrest all the terrorists beforehand.
B) Try to evacuate the airport and disarm the bomb, while trying to convince the terrorists to stop being terrorists.
C) Allow the bomb to blow up the airport and kill loads of people, then show up afterwords to help with medical care and triage.

I have no problems with the Knights refusing to go with option A. I do, however, see an issue with them choosing option C over option B. Even if it's not their job to protect innocents (and I would argue that it is part of their job, based on what we've seen them do in the books) they can't try to redeem any Denarians if they don't locate Denarians to redeem.