The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---3. If Harry Flippin' Dresden, Big Bad Brother Harry, as Butters calls him—the guy who the Alphas saw take down an entire group of Fae cavalry with one spell, a guy they've personally witnessed take on a pack of Hexenwulves AND a loup-garou, a guy with a reputation for being tough, competent, and extremely powerful (relative to them)—if THAT guy came to me, desperately calculating prime numbers to maintain his grip on his sanity, white as a sheet, telling me that he needed a dark, quiet place for an hour and a half before he was stable enough to function, and that whatever was after him was "really bad," my first response wouldn't be "Let's post two guards several dozen yards away from any kind of protection." It would be "Everyone come into my apartment; we're going to keep watch through the windows and guard ourselves behind a threshold, because something terrifying and powerful enough to send the most badass person we've ever met into gibbering madness is coming, and it's pretty obvious we should do whatever we can to protect ourselves without engaging it.""
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At what point do you think the Alphas could have done anything, had the Skin Walker wanted all of them dead? In a bunch or one by one, it would have made zero difference.
Later in the book the skin walker will attack at the Raith Mansion. There are 3 or 4 White Court vampires at home, not to mention a passel of merc's. The house is booby trapped and two powerful Wardens are on the ground and aware of what might be chasing them. The Skin Walker goes through the place like s**t through a goose and leaves a trail of dead and injured and only leaves because he made his point. Kirby was a snippet of Morse code, a message. A corpse used to send a message to Harry.
Bad Alias wrote this response and I was tired so my response was poor.
--- Quote ---@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.
--- End quote ---
The whole point of the attack was about Council politics and Peabody's attempt to cover his mistakes to maintain his position as a mole in the White Council. Things that Dresden had withheld from his Mushrooms(the Alphas). They knew almost nothing of the Council or the fact that that there was an overarching plot in the works to destroy the Council by a traitor. Which is, if I may say, several orders of magnitude above any threat the Alphas had been exposed to by that point.
In the case of Susan and Kim Harry either makes too much or too little information available. In Susan's case she is a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect, she over estimates her competence, Harry would have done better to involve her more and make her aware of the hazards and the mechanics of how the supernatural world works, like the privileges of guests for example. In Kim's case if he wasn't going to help he should have never drawn the circle on the piece of paper, the same piece that triggers Murphy's attack.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Kindler on June 05, 2019, 03:54:06 PM ---My things with Kirby are that
1. when the Alphas actually engaged the Skinwalker immediately after Kirby got his throat ripped out and Andi was beaten, they successfully drove it off. They didn't beat it, or hurt it, but they put it at a temporary disadvantage long enough for it to not see enough profit in continuing the engagement. So I don't think the Alphas were defenseless. Kirby just picked up the Idiot Ball. It was like he was the character in a ghost story going to investigate the strange noise in the attic by climbing up the stairs backwards with a flashlight that keeps turning off.
2. Kirby was standing watch on the other side of the parking lot, dozens of yards away from any help. He was standing under a streetlight, as a human rather than a wolf, holding a brightly lit cellphone in his hand. He wasn't ready for a surprise attack, even though the guy was supposed to be standing watch. Dresden recognizes the danger Kirby's in, and runs out to call him back when the Skinwalker gets him.
3. If Harry Flippin' Dresden, Big Bad Brother Harry, as Butters calls him—the guy who the Alphas saw take down an entire group of Fae cavalry with one spell, a guy they've personally witnessed take on a pack of Hexenwulves AND a loup-garou, a guy with a reputation for being tough, competent, and extremely powerful (relative to them)—if THAT guy came to me, desperately calculating prime numbers to maintain his grip on his sanity, white as a sheet, telling me that he needed a dark, quiet place for an hour and a half before he was stable enough to function, and that whatever was after him was "really bad," my first response wouldn't be "Let's post two guards several dozen yards away from any kind of protection." It would be "Everyone come into my apartment; we're going to keep watch through the windows and guard ourselves behind a threshold, because something terrifying and powerful enough to send the most badass person we've ever met into gibbering madness is coming, and it's pretty obvious we should do whatever we can to protect ourselves without engaging it."
I mean, shouldn't Billy or Georgia have been smart enough to think, "Hey, maybe this thing could reduce us to insanity too?" And shouldn't Kirby have thought, "Hey, I not only have better senses as a wolf, but I'm faster, stronger, and harder to kill, so I should probably stay as a wolf while I know something dangerous is around?"
Yes, Harry led the skinwalker to the area. But a couple of things about that. 1. Harry didn't have much of a choice. There was, quite literally, nowhere else to go. He couldn't have made it back to his apartment where a threshold would have protected him in the state he was in. He couldn't hide in a crowd of people, because there would be too much noise or light for him to do what he had to. Billy's place was the only one that would be both safe and quiet enough for him to recover. And 2. They don't take Harry's warning seriously enough. Applying even an ounce of genre savviness would have been enough for the Alphas to have escaped without permanent injury.
Maybe you can argue that Harry should have given Billy the rundown on the greater supernatural world, but I don't think it would've done them any good. They already knew there were things like the Loup Garou out there that they couldn't handle. They knew that there were WolfWeres like Tera West that were old and powerful enough to train humans to turn into wolves, so they had to know that the supernatural was bigger, weirder, and more dangerous than they thought. And when you have the guy who sets the bar for humanity's stand against the Spooky Things in the Night come to you and tell you that something really bad is coming, you take all the steps you can to make sure that you and yours stay alive.
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Exactly to all of that... That is basically what Will told Harry as well, they knew the risks, they are adults they made their choice it wasn't his fault... Later on page 220 is a bit different, Will mentions Kirby, but not because he is blaming Harry for his death, but because of his willing sacrifice and the fact that they are not kids any more, Harry doesn't need to and shouldn't shield them or think he has to shield them from the ugliness out there.. They want to help and fight along side of him, so Harry shouldn't hide anything from them. And Harry agreed..
--- Quote ---
In the case of Susan and Kim Harry either makes too much or too little information available. In Susan's case she is a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect, she over estimates her competence, Harry would have done better to involve her more and make her aware of the hazards and the mechanics of how the supernatural world works, like the privileges of guests for example. In Kim's case if he wasn't going to help he should have never drawn the circle on the piece of paper, the same piece that triggers Murphy's attack.
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He did... She was there when he took down the Loop, made hay with her newspaper over the scoop.. If that didn't tell her how dangerous things can get, what would.. But she wanted the scoop and the fame that gave her, plus part of her never bought into how fricking dangerous these beings can be... Her reaction when Harry tried to tell her was he was being over protective of her... Truth of the matter is she never listened to a word he said on the matter.
As far as Kim goes, she swore to him it was merely an academic exercise, and continues to swear that it is. Why wouldn't he teach her the basics? In physics class the instructor may draw out the basic plan as to how an A-Bomb works, even how to build one.. However I doubt the same instructor would do it if he or she knew you had enough weapons grade uranium back in your locker to make a bomb..
noblehunter:
What Harry could have done with Susan--which after learning better, he does with Murphy--is recognize that she wasn't to going to listen to advice that amounted to leave the supernatural alone because it's too dangerous. Since she was never going to be sensible, he probably should have clued her enough that she understood that she needed to drastically change how she approached the supernatural.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: noblehunter on June 05, 2019, 07:35:19 PM ---What Harry could have done with Susan--which after learning better, he does with Murphy--is recognize that she wasn't to going to listen to advice that amounted to leave the supernatural alone because it's too dangerous. Since she was never going to be sensible, he probably should have clued her enough that she understood that she needed to drastically change how she approached the supernatural.
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Exactly. Susan's case was too little info. He should have fed her more.
Kim Delaney was the exact opposite. Too much info. Without the diagram she couldn't have done Jack.
Mr. Death:
Telling someone that the supernatural is dangerous is not the same as telling them how it's dangerous.
Susan knew the supernatural was dangerous -- that's why she goes to the party with holy water and a gun. But she thought she could handle it because Harry didn't really detail how dangerous it would be, i.e., that if she was caught with a fake invitation she wouldn't just be kicked out, she'd be eaten or worse.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 05, 2019, 08:16:50 PM ---Exactly. Susan's case was too little info. He should have fed her more.
Kim Delaney was the exact opposite. Too much info. Without the diagram she couldn't have done Jack.
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I thought Kim already had the diagram when she came to Harry.
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