The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

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Kindler:
I'll go book by book to jog my memory.

1. The second Sells/Beckitt victim, the prostitute... Jenny? The one he meets at the airport. She's the only one Harry may have been able to intervene for, and even then, he pulls a classic sitcom mistake and schedules two dates at the same time. So he was in the process of attempting to help her when the storm broke and she got a bad case of heart...explosion. Maybe, if he had told her that her heart was in danger of exploding out of her chest, she may have taken it more seriously and come to him earlier for help. But I chalk it up to a case of missed opportunity rather than withholding information.
2. Kim. I can go either way on this one. It's not really Harry's fault because he was deceived.
3. Susan. Nope, Susan made her own bed. She picked up the Idiot Ball and ran with it. What she did was way more dangerous than even what war correspondents do when they report from the field; it's very rare that you see a reporter go to an ISIS party to chase down a story about a day in the life of a terrorist.
4. Summer Knight... nothing comes to mind. The only people involved are either clued in, or, in Murphy's case, get clued in.
5. Death Masks... nothing on this one. The only death I can recall is Shiro, and he knew more than Harry (including that he was going to die).
6. Blood Rites... there's an argument to be made about the actresses on set. I think Harry could have outright told the producer (Genosa? I can't remember) that there WAS a curse, but I think he kept it vaguer than necessary. But I can go either way on this one.
7. Dead Beat... he clues Butters in pretty well. No, I don't think there's anyone he kept anything from (unless you count Luccio?) who got hurt because of it.
8. Proven Guilty. This time, it happened to Harry. If Molly had gone to him with what she knew about her magic, Proven Guilty pretty much doesn't happen. Ditto Thomas shadowing Harry all over town instead of being up front with him.
9. White Night. Nothing comes to mind. Harry's pretty up front with the Ordo. The only thing he held back at first was Beckitt's criminal past, and that didn't affect much.
10. Small Favor. Again, it was done to Harry with his blasting rod (which I've always thought was an unnecessarily macho term for "wand.") Harry lays out his cards pretty openly. Michael's the one who got hurt, but not because Harry didn't say "Hey, watch out for Ak-47s."
11. Turn Coat. Nope. Nada.
12. Changes. Again, this happened TO Harry. If Susan had told him they'd had a daughter, Harry would've made it his business to incinerate anyone who looked at her the wrong way. There's an argument to be made that he shouldn't have brought Molly along (and we all saw the consequences there). And Susan... Harry manipulated her at the altar. He telepathically told Susan that Martin's knife couldn't hurt her because of her Fae armor, but knew it was a lie (since the blade was steel). He convinced her to kill Martin, knowing she'd drain him and turn, all so he could kill the Red Court.
13. Ghost Story. Nothing comes to mind.
14. Cold Days. Molly, maybe? Not really, though. He doesn't withhold much of anything from her.
15. Skin Game. The only one who's hurt is Murphy, and she went in with open eyes.

So I think there are only a few across the whole series. Maybe there are some examples in the short stories, but I don't recall most of them in great detail.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---If Kirby had known, for instance, that Harry was being pursued by something on the Skinwalker's level, he might have been a bit more cautious rather than strolling back talking on a cell phone that lit up his face and made him a target.
--- End quote ---

He might have been more cautious. But A) he knew something super-bad might be out there already, because Will and Georgina had seen the state that Harry arrived in; and B) so long as he was out patrolling at all, the Skinwalker would have got him--it's just too good.


--- Quote ---Maybe. Maybe not. We don't really know what Harry's told them about the dangers out there. Harry wasn't prepared for the skinwalker, so I have a hard time imagining he could have sufficiently prepared the Alphas.

The bottom line is that the case of Kirby is a weak argument for Harry's withholding of information being harmful.
--- End quote ---

This.


--- Quote ---Well, evidently Billy thought so.
--- End quote ---

Yes, but he was quite explicitly coming from a place of ignorance. For all he knew, these things were as common as faeries, and with similar weaknesses.


--- Quote ---1. The second Sells/Beckitt victim, the prostitute... Jenny? The one he meets at the airport. She's the only one Harry may have been able to intervene for, and even then, he pulls a classic sitcom mistake and schedules two dates at the same time. So he was in the process of attempting to help her when the storm broke and she got a bad case of heart...explosion. Maybe, if he had told her that her heart was in danger of exploding out of her chest, she may have taken it more seriously and come to him earlier for help. But I chalk it up to a case of missed opportunity rather than withholding information.
2. Kim. I can go either way on this one. It's not really Harry's fault because he was deceived.
3. Susan. Nope, Susan made her own bed. She picked up the Idiot Ball and ran with it. What she did was way more dangerous than even what war correspondents do when they report from the field; it's very rare that you see a reporter go to an ISIS party to chase down a story about a day in the life of a terrorist.
4. Summer Knight... nothing comes to mind. The only people involved are either clued in, or, in Murphy's case, get clued in.
5. Death Masks... nothing on this one. The only death I can recall is Shiro, and he knew more than Harry (including that he was going to die).
--- End quote ---

All of this.


--- Quote ---6. Blood Rites... there's an argument to be made about the actresses on set. I think Harry could have outright told the producer (Genosa? I can't remember) that there WAS a curse, but I think he kept it vaguer than necessary. But I can go either way on this one.
--- End quote ---

As I recall, it was Genosa that first realized it was a curse, which is why he hired Harry. And I'm pretty sure Harry told him explicitly after that girl was electrocuted in the shower (which was when he got confirmation).


--- Quote ---7. Dead Beat... he clues Butters in pretty well. No, I don't think there's anyone he kept anything from (unless you count Luccio?) who got hurt because of it.
8. Proven Guilty. This time, it happened to Harry. If Molly had gone to him with what she knew about her magic, Proven Guilty pretty much doesn't happen. Ditto Thomas shadowing Harry all over town instead of being up front with him.
9. White Night. Nothing comes to mind. Harry's pretty up front with the Ordo. The only thing he held back at first was Beckitt's criminal past, and that didn't affect much.
10. Small Favor. Again, it was done to Harry with his blasting rod (which I've always thought was an unnecessarily macho term for "wand.") Harry lays out his cards pretty openly. Michael's the one who got hurt, but not because Harry didn't say "Hey, watch out for Ak-47s."
11. Turn Coat. Nope. Nada.
12. Changes. Again, this happened TO Harry. If Susan had told him they'd had a daughter, Harry would've made it his business to incinerate anyone who looked at her the wrong way. There's an argument to be made that he shouldn't have brought Molly along (and we all saw the consequences there). And Susan... Harry manipulated her at the altar. He telepathically told Susan that Martin's knife couldn't hurt her because of her Fae armor, but knew it was a lie (since the blade was steel). He convinced her to kill Martin, knowing she'd drain him and turn, all so he could kill the Red Court.
13. Ghost Story. Nothing comes to mind.
14. Cold Days. Molly, maybe? Not really, though. He doesn't withhold much of anything from her.
15. Skin Game. The only one who's hurt is Murphy, and she went in with open eyes.
--- End quote ---

And all of this.

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 03, 2019, 07:55:41 PM ---He thought it might have made a difference. I just don't see how it would have. The problem is we don't really know that much about how and what the Alphas do. It's mentioned repeatedly how hard it is to impress the dangers of the world on the young, so I'm not sure Harry could have changed anything by informing the Alphas that there are great and terrible powers out there.

I would have insisted on full disclosure if I were Billy too. I'm not a "no questions asked" kind of guy if I'm helping someone do something. It doesn't even have to be a dangerous something.

--- End quote ---
Look, it's Harry's, he owns it.  He led it to them and it killed them.  They couldn't make an informed choice because he kept them in the dark.  It isn't that they might not die but rather that they didn't fully understand the risks.  And this is true in all the early books, with Kim Delaney and Susan.  Both were foolish, but it's one thing to be foolish and another to be ignorant and foolish.  Turn Coat is the last time it's an issue.  So I'll call it three times, to speak to the OP's point.

Mira:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 03, 2019, 09:25:39 PM ---Look, it's Harry's, he owns it.  He led it to them and it killed them.  They couldn't make an informed choice because he kept them in the dark.  It isn't that they might not die but rather that they didn't fully understand the risks.  And this is true in all the early books, with Kim Delaney and Susan.  Both were foolish, but it's one thing to be foolish and another to be ignorant and foolish.  Turn Coat is the last time it's an issue.  So I'll call it three times, to speak to the OP's point.

--- End quote ---

Um, he warned both Kim and Susan as best he could, let's not forget some information Harry isn't at liberty to share...  Let's be fair here,  did Kim tell Harry why she really wanted the plans?  No...  When Harry mentioned that such a circle was only used to contain the likes of archangels and demigods, did she say who or what she was trying to contain?  NO!  Her answer was sheer stupidity about Harry thinking she isn't strong enough to build such a circle.. Even if Harry had given her ALL the information it is doubtful that she could have pulled it off under pressure...

Susan, what more could Harry have told her?   All she cared about was getting a story so she blew off Harry's warnings about the party and who was there, hell he didn't want to go it was so dangerous...  After witnessing the run in with the Loop, and the Frog Demon in Storm Front you'd think she'd trust Harry's word when he says something is just too dangerous for mere vanilla mortals to come up against... The smart thing would have been to trust his word and use common sense... When someone tells you not to touch the red hot stove, don't touch it or you might get badly burned...  She was, and Kim paid with her life..   Both had pretty informed choices to make and they made them, they chose to disregard Harry's warnings.  It's like a mine field with signs that say, "DO NOT GO INTO THE MINE FIELD, DANGER!!!!"  You know mines can kill, you know they can rip off arms and legs etc.... You've been told by an explosives expert that these are very powerful mines easily triggered and they can reduce you to a red stain in the dirt...   But you've never seen this yourself, and though this person is an expert, he has to be over protective, just how dangerous can they really be?  You make your informed choice and take a walk in the marked field... You may get lucky and not trip anything, does that make the warnings wrong?  Or you step on one and are reduced to red goo...  You made an informed choice, what more information could the explosive expert have given you to keep you out of that damn field?

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---Look, it's Harry's, he owns it.
--- End quote ---

Harry feels guilty for just about everything bad that happens to the people around him, regardless of whether he's actually at fault. Given this, Harry's guilt does not appear to be an accurate indicator of whether or not Harry's actually responsible for something.


--- Quote ---He led it to them and it killed them.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, but that's an entirely different issue. It's got nothing to do with information-sharing.


--- Quote ---They couldn't make an informed choice because he kept them in the dark.
--- End quote ---

An informed choice about what? Fighting monsters generally? Well, Harry may not have given them all the information, but they've been doing it long enough at this point that I think it's safe to assume that they've made a reasonably informed decision regarding whether they want to keep doing that. The fact that Harry was followed? Well, it would have been helpful if he'd shared more information about that, but given that he was barely conscious and hardly capable of stringing two words together, I don't see how he could have managed it. Skinwalkers in particular? Well, talking about them makes them stronger, plus they seem fairly obscure, and Harry had no reason to expect that anyone he knew would ever run into them, so I think that falls under the category of "can't be reasonably foreseen."


--- Quote ---It isn't that they might not die but rather that they didn't fully understand the risks.
--- End quote ---

This might be true. If they didn't know much about any high-level enemy, then they couldn't have understood the risks. But I had always thought they'd gotten a perfunctory briefing about "there's lots of things way more dangerous than you, and you just have to stay out of their way if possible" before the big battle in Summer Knight--I may be wrong, though.


--- Quote ---And this is true in all the early books, with Kim Delaney and Susan.  Both were foolish, but it's one thing to be foolish and another to be ignorant and foolish.
--- End quote ---

Nope. The risks were the thing Harry was extremely clear about in both these cases. It was the other details he wasn't sharing.

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