The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

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morriswalters:
I made a simple declarative statement.  Guilt has nothing to do with it.  Harry sought refuge, by doing so he caused Kirby to be killed.  Pure cause and effect. 

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---I made a simple declarative statement.  Guilt has nothing to do with it.  Harry sought refuge, by doing so he caused Kirby to be killed.  Pure cause and effect.
--- End quote ---

Oh, is that what you were saying? Sorry, I misunderstood. I'd thought you were talking about Harry not giving the Alphas information on the supernatural world, since Harry not sharing information is the topic of the thread.

huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: Mira on June 03, 2019, 02:51:30 PM ---Here is the conversation in Fool Moon, paperback page -5 6...

Kim has just asked Harry several questions behind the theory of holding circles and how they work, she has drawn a picture of it.  He answers her about the first two rings,  then she asks about using a third...  He asks her if she copied it right..
Let's back up to the first page...  He is speaking of a full moon, then what Kim has shown him..
He goes on to warn her not to mess with it, even the knowledge is dangerous.  Page 2 she totally lies to him...
Page 3 Harry asks her again....
He answers some of her questions and she eagerly takes notes until we get to the third inner circle..
Harry realizes there is something fishy a foot...
pages 5-6

Harry stops giving her straight answers to her further questions and continues to warn her... She insists that she is strong enough to activate such a circle... He answers page 6 

He goes on to tell her even if she did, he'd still warn her against it because if she made a mistake, it could hurt a lot of people... Then she gets pissed and stalks off...  Then on page 8

Harry adds talking to himself now...
1]  Kim never told Harry the truth..
2] That it was for a Loop never entered his mind, until he talked to Bob Harry had doubts that they
even existed
3] He thought he was helping her keep her head by not giving her anymore information, just knowing it was dangerous...
4] He had no idea that she was going to try and attempt it even without all the information she needed...  He really thought she had more sense...

Harry blames himself, but honestly if she wasn't willing to tell him the truth, what else could he have done but what he did do?
Mr Death
See above, he did question her closely and she blew him off, and out and out lied to him... Consider how different it could have turned out,  if she had told him the truth about the Loop and what had happened... If I know our Harry, he would have  jumped up without finishing his steak and insisted that he be taken to the subject that so badly needed containing and do the circle himself..  However given those determined that the Loop get out, it still might not have been enough..

--- End quote ---

Now you understand why the white council is so intolerant. You mess with something above your pay grade, and they come down at you like a ton of bricks, your reasons and excuses be damm. And Harry is officially a wizard of the white council.

He should had taken more proactive action. The only excuse Harry has to explain this mistake is youth and inexperience. If it is Morgan, Kim would have been interrogated at sword point.

morriswalters:
You say this.
--- Quote ---Harry feels guilty for just about everything bad that happens to the people around him, regardless of whether he's actually at fault. Given this, Harry's guilt does not appear to be an accurate indicator of whether or not Harry's actually responsible for something.

--- End quote ---
I never said anything about guilt.  I said Harry was responsible for Kirby dying.  This is pure cause and effect.  The original response contained Billy's statement to Harry and as such can't be clarified.  This is precisely what Billy is telling Harry.  Harry, you're not giving me enough information to do what it is I do.  Which is to assess the risk to his pack.

@Mira

They train soldiers so that they pay attention to orders without thinking and practice their responses to the situations that they expect to see in the field.  What they try not to do is let inexperienced people into situations that could kill them with out the knowledge they need to stay alive.  Run through your mind about the type of things Jim has Harry do to Molly that runs along this vain when he acquires Molly as an apprentice.  If he was going to bring Kim or Susan into his realm, he incurred an obligation to give them them that knowledge. 

huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: Kindler on June 03, 2019, 08:13:09 PM ---I'll go book by book to jog my memory.

1. The second Sells/Beckitt victim, the prostitute... Jenny? The one he meets at the airport. She's the only one Harry may have been able to intervene for, and even then, he pulls a classic sitcom mistake and schedules two dates at the same time. So he was in the process of attempting to help her when the storm broke and she got a bad case of heart...explosion. Maybe, if he had told her that her heart was in danger of exploding out of her chest, she may have taken it more seriously and come to him earlier for help. But I chalk it up to a case of missed opportunity rather than withholding information.
2. Kim. I can go either way on this one. It's not really Harry's fault because he was deceived.
3. Susan. Nope, Susan made her own bed. She picked up the Idiot Ball and ran with it. What she did was way more dangerous than even what war correspondents do when they report from the field; it's very rare that you see a reporter go to an ISIS party to chase down a story about a day in the life of a terrorist.
4. Summer Knight... nothing comes to mind. The only people involved are either clued in, or, in Murphy's case, get clued in.
5. Death Masks... nothing on this one. The only death I can recall is Shiro, and he knew more than Harry (including that he was going to die).
6. Blood Rites... there's an argument to be made about the actresses on set. I think Harry could have outright told the producer (Genosa? I can't remember) that there WAS a curse, but I think he kept it vaguer than necessary. But I can go either way on this one.
7. Dead Beat... he clues Butters in pretty well. No, I don't think there's anyone he kept anything from (unless you count Luccio?) who got hurt because of it.
8. Proven Guilty. This time, it happened to Harry. If Molly had gone to him with what she knew about her magic, Proven Guilty pretty much doesn't happen. Ditto Thomas shadowing Harry all over town instead of being up front with him.
9. White Night. Nothing comes to mind. Harry's pretty up front with the Ordo. The only thing he held back at first was Beckitt's criminal past, and that didn't affect much.
10. Small Favor. Again, it was done to Harry with his blasting rod (which I've always thought was an unnecessarily macho term for "wand.") Harry lays out his cards pretty openly. Michael's the one who got hurt, but not because Harry didn't say "Hey, watch out for Ak-47s."
11. Turn Coat. Nope. Nada.
12. Changes. Again, this happened TO Harry. If Susan had told him they'd had a daughter, Harry would've made it his business to incinerate anyone who looked at her the wrong way. There's an argument to be made that he shouldn't have brought Molly along (and we all saw the consequences there). And Susan... Harry manipulated her at the altar. He telepathically told Susan that Martin's knife couldn't hurt her because of her Fae armor, but knew it was a lie (since the blade was steel). He convinced her to kill Martin, knowing she'd drain him and turn, all so he could kill the Red Court.
13. Ghost Story. Nothing comes to mind.
14. Cold Days. Molly, maybe? Not really, though. He doesn't withhold much of anything from her.
15. Skin Game. The only one who's hurt is Murphy, and she went in with open eyes.

So I think there are only a few across the whole series. Maybe there are some examples in the short stories, but I don't recall most of them in great detail.

--- End quote ---

The point is Susan should have known about the supernatural at all. This is all started when Harry advertise himself as a wizard in the yellow pages. He open the Pandora's box right there. There is a reason why the white council looks poorly about Harry in this matter. It may look innocent at the start, but Harry's advertisement draws amateurs into the the game of supernaturals. All because Harry can't maintain secrecy at the start and fail to fully clued in people when secrecy fails.

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