The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders

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kbrizzle:

--- Quote from: Hankthemoose on May 31, 2019, 11:58:33 AM ---You're wrong on both counts.

1.) All the denarians use magic, though some are certainly more proficient than others. Nicodemus' shadow leaping off the wall to strangle people is definitely a use of magic to kill. The same goes for Quintus Cassius, who was one of Nic's liutenants and explicitly a magic user with his snake-intensive spells.

2.) In Cold Days, Harry tries to get Murphy to bring a Sword, who refuses, saying explicitly "This isn't their fight". Also, if you think the use of Swords against the Ramps has anything to do with the outsiders, I encourage you to re-read Changes. It's explicitly stated that they're being punished for being "false gods".

3.) I'll add another point. Outsiders cooperate, they do not fight. The direct quote is "Outsiders; they work together, all of them". This means that, in your black magic=outsider influence model, all properly corrupted black magic users should be working together. Cowl, who is clearly aligned with the outsiders, was competing against and fighting Grevane and Corpsetaker, who are very obviously fully corrupted by black magic. It's obvious that they are not working with outsiders, or they would be cooperating 100% with Cowl.

--- End quote ---

Hmmm.... you seem to be misunderstanding my premise here - I’m not saying that all black magic users are automatically aligned with the Outsiders & their plan. My take on the black magic is connected to Outsiders theory is simply that the taint on a person’ soul from repeated uses of black magic creates a link of sorts to the Outside - whether or not this link is explored by either party is a different thing entirely. My point in this thread is just that the average mortal practitioner cannot likely summon Outsiders, you need to have a black magic taint on your soul in order to be able to do so.

Outsiders can only likely interact with black magic users who seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates, so it is not surprising that all black magic users don’t work together or have any desire to. Some of them may even be against Outsiders - but we have seen no mortal wizard of any significant power who is a regular black magic user actively oppose the Outsiders in the series so far. I believe this is because they have all sought knowledge from beyond the Gates in order to become more powerful.
Just because Grevane & Corpsetaker wanted to attain the Darkhallow doesn’t mean they knew that the Outsiders are allied with Cowl, or indeed that Outsiders are involved in DB at all - they seem to think that the only real contenders for necro-godhood are the other 2 necromancers since it was a prize ‘discovered’ by their mutual mentor, Kemmler. Suppose Corpsetaker or Grevane ‘won’ in DB, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Black Council would just make a deal with either since they have common foes (like the White Council) - we even see Capiocorpus allying with the Fomor in GS, & they are likely to have links to the Outside.

Regarding your point about the Swords. The quote you bring up in Changes actually explicitly states that the reason they are there is because of the Ramps’ “crimes against the Mayans & people’s of the world”. False gods is a descriptor - by this logic, Odin is also a ‘false god’ but the Swords don’t seem to have an issue with him or Hades.
In CD, Murphy is right - Fidelaccius would have been vulnerable if it would have been brought to Demonreach for the fight. Maeve had hoodwinked Lily, Fix & the Summer retinue into believing her Nfected version of events - if Murphy had used the Sword on any of them, I believe it would’ve made Fidelaccius vulnerable to destruction since it would’ve been a morally murky decision (given that the Summer party is doing what they believe is their job) - & we see in SG that Murphy can be manipulated into making a bad decision. Additionally, there was no need for the Swords since Starborn/ Warden of the island Harry (whose purpose it is to protect Demonreach) had Odin & the Erlking (Mab’s peer) along with the Wild Hunt with him. In Changes, there were no morally murky decisions to be made - it was war, not a surgical strike, hence 2 temp KotC along with Sanya were present.

About your last point regarding all Outsiders working together - this is just what Harry currently thinks - he may be wrong (I don’t think he is, just pointing it out).

Hankthemoose:
Ah, yes, I did not understand your premise. That is a lot more interesting than what I thought you meant, which was black magic --> Outsider infection. I still don't love it, but it works a lot better narratively.

The Lords of Outer Night are actually false (lower-case) gods. I think it was the DF RPG (?), explaining that the LOON are vampires who are drinking the blood of real non-false Amerindian gods to gain their power. I don't think Odin would get a "false god" descriptor from a sword bearer, exp. considering that Uriel and Vadderung are repeatedly implied to be allies.

kbrizzle:
@Hank
I do recall a WoJ or something about the LoOns doing that. Although that being said, I wonder what actually constitutes a false god in the DV. I imagine a god as a being with the ability to create new life - so the Red King was a god in a way since he created the whole Red Court. I would not consider the LoOns to be gods (despite their desire to be worshipped as such) - they were created by the Red King & hence less powerful than him.

Bad Alias:
This raises an interesting question. In the DF, what is a god? I'd say a god must have godly power, be immortal, and have worshipers.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 02, 2019, 08:00:30 PM --- ... a god must have godly power ...
--- End quote ---

That's a bit circular...    What is a god <---> a god has godly power

How do you distinguish between "godly" power and major badassery like Ferrovax's?  Or even just Mab's?

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