The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 21, 2019, 07:54:16 PM ---So, are you going to suggest improvements, or do you just not like this ability, period?
For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming?
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Yes. That would put it more in line with other skill-swapping stunts.
--- Quote ---What if power bonuses only contributed to aiming, rather than the attack value?
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That creates more bookkeeping, which can bog things down.
--- Quote ---Would it work better if it was limited to fists, and you had to pay an extra refresh to use it with weapons? Would it work better if you had to cut your conviction + power bonuses in half to use this ability? What if you just have a flat -2 on all rolls using this power? What if you had to split the value of your roll between aiming and attack value? Should this power instead be the ability to do earth magic maneuvers without stress as a supplemental action when attacking with fists/weapons, without the usual -1 penalty?
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I tend to avoid using different penalties and such like that, because again, more bookkeeping when combat is already by nature a time-consuming endeavor, so streamlining it tends to be preferred.
--- Quote ---I appreciate feedback, but it's really annoying when what I'm hearing is "it won't work, and you shouldn't make it work because your reasons for wanting to make it work are stupid." I don't like most roleplaying games, and what makes this one fun is that I really like the Dresden files. As such, I'm trying to create powers that let things work the way they do in the books.
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I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't see a conflict that needs to be resolved with a new power -- as I said, "roll it as Evocation, but flavor it as a sword attack" is something I've regularly done as a GM and, perhaps more to the point, we haven't necessarily seen Morgan do this, the characters are just speculating about it in the margins -- so the proposal seems, to me, both unnecessary and potentially game-breaking.
For what it's worth, I read the margin conversation as more, "Maybe this is what justifies Morgan's high Weapons skill," and less, "Maybe he's literally using his magic to actively strike better with the sword."
--- Quote ---I hadn't seen these. But, um, why couldn't other characters use them, too? If your valkyrie and mortal gunfighter also have the option of buying these stunts (and probably have more refresh to do it with, honestly) how is this a problem?
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Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.
Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.
It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Yes. That would put it more in line with other skill-swapping stunts.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---That creates more bookkeeping, which can bog things down.
--- End quote ---
I think I'm going to go with having the power bonus only effect aim, rather than not effect aim, since it's the same amount of bookkeeping (you just subtract the power bonus from the attack when calculating damage instead of when aiming) and it seems more thematically appropriate.
--- Quote ---I tend to avoid using different penalties and such like that, because again, more bookkeeping when combat is already by nature a time-consuming endeavor, so streamlining it tends to be preferred.
--- End quote ---
Good point.
--- Quote ---I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't see a conflict that needs to be resolved with a new power -- as I said, "roll it as Evocation, but flavor it as a sword attack" is something I've regularly done as a GM and, perhaps more to the point, we haven't necessarily seen Morgan do this, the characters are just speculating about it in the margins -- so the proposal seems, to me, both unnecessary and potentially game-breaking.
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It's fine. At least 50% of the annoyance in my response was being stuck on a bus for entirely too long.
In the interest of honesty, a lot of the reason I care so much about flavor has nothing to do with actually playing the game--I'm trying to write a fanfic whose premise lends itself to massively overpowering the main character (fem!Harry, due to a botched ascension ritual she casts in her 40s, ends up getting into about 12 times more trouble and getting about 12 times more power ups than cannon!Harry (for example, she ends up with soulfire at the end of Fool Moon, but has no idea how it works or how to use it or how not to use it until White Night/Small Favor; as a result, she uses it accidentally during Proven Guilty, which results in her accidentally gaining semi-permanent access to Summer Fire; in order to stop Summer from trying to kill her for stealing access to their magic, she agrees to help form a strike team to do Summer's work and run it for a year or two; as a result, she ends up in Baltimore dealing with the ghoul from Your Story, and decides to tap into the destruction Ley line to do it; but because destructive energy is generally unstable she ends up dealing with things like having it flare too strongly and bringing the tunnel down on top of her, and having the power cut out on her just as she gets attacked by something else; etc)) and I'm trying to use the RPG's character progression to stop her getting too strong too fast. As a result, I spend a bunch of time trying to figure out how to turn "this particular narrative ability" into a balanced RPG power that does what I want it to and doesn't overlap too badly with all the other powers that look similar (for example, differentiating phoenix magic from firebird magic from fire Ley line magic from stolen-dog-of-a-volcano god magic).
--- Quote ---For what it's worth, I read the margin conversation as more, "Maybe this is what justifies Morgan's high Weapons skill," and less, "Maybe he's literally using his magic to actively strike better with the sword."
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I can see how that would be another interpretation.
--- Quote ---Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.
Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.
It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.
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I can see how that would be annoying.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 21, 2019, 07:54:16 PM ---For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming?
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They already don't. Aim is Discipline + control, not Conviction + power.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 21, 2019, 02:50:36 PM ---Maybe, but there's still a functional limit and real risk associated with it. Evocation is powerful, sure, and it's supposed to be, but it's also not supposed to be something you can use all day.
I mean, look at Breath Weapon, which would work similarly to this. For one, it's only Weapon:2, and it doesn't allow for a bunch of stacked bonuses to make it auto-hit every round.
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The limitation is well worth it. It's not reasonable to call this overpowered when it's worse than the existing baseline.
Especially since, when you remove the assumption that the Wizard is going all-in on hitting as hard as possible, this Power suffers more than regular Evocation does.
Anyway, I don't think Breath Weapon is a good comparison. Because Breath Weapon doesn't actually provide a bonus; it just lets you spend 2 Refresh on a guarantee that you will never be disarmed.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 21, 2019, 08:23:33 PM ---Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.
--- End quote ---
If a weapon focus stunt would be unfair in your game, you might want to nerf foci/enchanted items. And merge Fists with Weapons.
There's a bunch of stuff in the game based on the assumption that characters won't always have their stuff. Foci, the existence of the Fists skill, Item of Power, Armed Arts, Breath Weapon, and the like.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 21, 2019, 02:50:36 PM ---Check Our World sometime; the average monster is statted so that its dodge is at 3, with Ghouls and a couple others something of an outlier at 4 and 5.
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--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 21, 2019, 08:23:33 PM ---Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.
It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.
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You don't need high optimization to smack around Our World monsters. You just need to put combat-relevant stuff in (some of) your highest skill slots and spend a bit of Refresh on fighty stuff. OW generally assumes / expects a low level of both optimization and combat focus.
I don't really see this as a problem, since there's no right level of optimization or combat focus. But I do think it would've been good for the book to talk a bit about how monster stats can be adjusted to suit different groups.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 22, 2019, 04:58:08 AM ---I think I'm going to go with having the power bonus only effect aim, rather than not effect aim, since it's the same amount of bookkeeping (you just subtract the power bonus from the attack when calculating damage instead of when aiming) and it seems more thematically appropriate.
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You should probably drop the cost to 1 Refresh, then. At that point it's not much better than a stunt letting you swing your sword with Discipline. Particularly if your target's armoured.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 22, 2019, 06:16:53 AM ---The limitation is well worth it. It's not reasonable to call this overpowered when it's worse than the existing baseline.
Especially since, when you remove the assumption that the Wizard is going all-in on hitting as hard as possible, this Power suffers more than regular Evocation does.
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The thing is, it gives the wizard essentially a free attack that's far more powerful for the high attack roll than is available to anyone else and it frees up the Mental stress boxes for defenses and maneuvers, when without this stunt, a wizard would have to more carefully balance his resources.
A normal wizard might have to choose between whether to use his stress boxes to attack or defend -- with this stunt, they're free to put up an enormous Block against all attacks, then attack at their leisure for free.
--- Quote ---Anyway, I don't think Breath Weapon is a good comparison. Because Breath Weapon doesn't actually provide a bonus; it just lets you spend 2 Refresh on a guarantee that you will never be disarmed.
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That was kind of my point. If Breath Weapon is the game's model for a "free" magic attack, this proposed stunt blows it out of the water.
--- Quote ---If a weapon focus stunt would be unfair in your game, you might want to nerf foci/enchanted items. And merge Fists with Weapons.
There's a bunch of stuff in the game based on the assumption that characters won't always have their stuff. Foci, the existence of the Fists skill, Item of Power, Armed Arts, Breath Weapon, and the like.
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But the majority of the time, the players are going to have them, while other stunts that add +1 to attack or +2 to stress tend to have more narrow applications than just, "Have the weapon you're probably going to have most of the time."
What's the point of a stunt to get +1 to an attack when I'm surrounded by targets if I can instead take a stunt to get +1 to attack all the time? What's the point of a stunt to unload the clip of a gun for +2 stress when I can just take a stunt to get +2 on every attack with the gun?
--- Quote ---You don't need high optimization to smack around Our World monsters. You just need to put combat-relevant stuff in (some of) your highest skill slots and spend a bit of Refresh on fighty stuff. OW generally assumes / expects a low level of both optimization and combat focus.
--- End quote ---
That's right, you don't -- thing is, there's a problem when a 6-refresh Pure Mortal is able to trounce monsters that, in canon, give full-fledged-wizard Harry consistent trouble.
--- Quote ---I don't really see this as a problem, since there's no right level of optimization or combat focus. But I do think it would've been good for the book to talk a bit about how monster stats can be adjusted to suit different groups.
--- End quote ---
It's more of a mindset thing and personal pet peeve, I think, than a practical problem.
Taran:
This all seems too complicated. Why not just say that his weapon skill is complimented by his discipline? Thematically appropriate and it adds a +1 to his weapon skill if his discipline is higher than weapons.
This is a -1 refresh stunt - at most.
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