The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---And the Speed bonuses top out at +3; so even if a monster is starting from a 5 in Athletics, every attack the person with this stunt throws can be 2 above that.
It's not possible to have 10-base attack rolls for something without taking stress for each attack.
--- End quote ---
Okay, let me see if I can figure out how much refresh you'd have to spend to get a base-10 attack using this power. I'll assume you have a Conviction of 5.
First, evocation is -3 refresh.
Then, to get a +5 earth power bonus, you need to account for the skill pyramid in evocation bonuses, so you need (5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 - 1)/2 = -7 refresh worth of refinements.
Then this power is -2 refresh.
So that comes out to -12 refresh...if you let someone buy this power with just evocation. I wouldn't; I'd say that, similar to the way you have to have a certain number of refinements to buy the mental toughness powers, you'd have to be a full wizard with at least inhuman mental toughness to buy any stressless spellcasting power.
Thaumaturgy is -3 refresh.
The Sight is -1 refresh.
Inhuman mental toughness is -2 refresh.
So now it costs -18 refresh. ...Honestly, at that power level, I don't think having this kind of attack is unreasonable.
--- Quote ---And if you have to rewrite all the monsters in the game to accommodate it, yes, it's a game-breaker.
--- End quote ---
I'm not saying "rewrite all the monsters in the game," I'm saying "have attacks happen when the wizard doesn't have his/her weapon," "stage ambushes," "use snipers," "have monsters throw a bomb in the wizard's house," "make the wizard deal with drive-by shootings"--you know, the ways we've seen wizards get attacked in the books.
--- Quote ---One of the caster's few weaknesses is that their stress tracks effectively limit how many big attacks they can pull off, especially as they might want to use that stress for maneuvers or blocks instead.
This effectively removes that limit, and given how the attack roll stacks damage on top of the weapon roll, that's a pretty big deal, especially since further refinements can keep stacking it.
It also means the four refresh you'd have to divide between attacking and defending are completely free to defend, lessening the burden of the Paranet Papers' suggestion of using instant spells for defense rolls.
--- End quote ---
You don't have wizards attack/get attacked much in the Nevernever in your games, do you? Because the stressless casting I'm using is adapted directly from what Paranet Papers says that all wizards get in the Nevernever.
--- Quote ---I honestly don't see any reason you couldn't represent that by just rolling an Earth evocation like normal and flavoring it as him using the sword, because that's more what it seems to be saying.
--- End quote ---
Because I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made with, say, a weapon:1 knife, a weapon:2 or 3 sword, or a weapon:0 fist count as a weapon:10 attack, and that's what this would accomplish.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 21, 2019, 03:35:58 PM ---Okay, let me see if I can figure out how much refresh you'd have to spend to get a base-10 attack using this power. I'll assume you have a Conviction of 5.
--- End quote ---
Way less than what you're positing.
Evocation: -3 refresh, puts you at 6; plus two Focus slots, which put you at 8.
Then either Thaumaturgy (which a wizard is taking anyway) or a single refinement for two more slots to make it 10.
And it kind of seems like you're moving the goalposts with the mental toughness requirement, considering it hasn't been mentioned at all up to now in the discussion.
--- Quote ---I'm not saying "rewrite all the monsters in the game," I'm saying "have attacks happen when the wizard doesn't have his/her weapon," "stage ambushes," "use snipers," "have monsters throw a bomb in the wizard's house," "make the wizard deal with drive-by shootings"--you know, the ways we've seen wizards get attacked in the books.
--- End quote ---
Players are nothing if not resourceful enough to find ways around any of those.
And a player is going to be more than a little cross if every fight deprives him of a skill he put time into putting together, so the game is going to have at least a few straight fights, in which case the wizard casting free attacks from 10+ with Weapon:3 is going to outclass any of his mundane allies, without even incurring the normal costs of doing business.
--- Quote ---You don't have wizards attack/get attacked much in the Nevernever in your games, do you? Because the stressless casting I'm using is adapted directly from what Paranet Papers says that all wizards get in the Nevernever.
--- End quote ---
In a very specific spot that not all games go to, and which has built-in consequences when you do try to use it. This is bringing the power plus a weapon rating, everywhere without those consequences.
--- Quote ---Because I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made with, say, a weapon:1 knife, a weapon:2 or 3 sword, or a weapon:0 fist count as a weapon:10 attack, and that's what this would accomplish.
--- End quote ---
I don't understand this objection at all.
It's an Earth evocation; just flavored as something different. If anything, the knife or sword or fist as flavor is superfluous.
It's like saying, "I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made by, say, pointing a wooden stick at someone from across the room and shouting a Latin word count as a Weapon:10 attack, and that's what Evocation would accomplish."
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Way less than what you're positing.
Evocation: -3 refresh, puts you at 6; plus two Focus slots, which put you at 8.
Then either Thaumaturgy (which a wizard is taking anyway) or a single refinement for two more slots to make it 10.
--- End quote ---
Forgot about focus items, yes.
--- Quote ---And it kind of seems like you're moving the goalposts with the mental toughness requirement, considering it hasn't been mentioned at all up to now in the discussion.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, I had thought that I said something about mental toughness and stressless casting earlier, but it turns out that not only was it on a different thread, it was a different thing about the mental strain of stressless casting altogether. My bad.
--- Quote ---Players are nothing if not resourceful enough to find ways around any of those.
And a player is going to be more than a little cross if every fight deprives him of a skill he put time into putting together, so the game is going to have at least a few straight fights, in which case the wizard casting free attacks from 10+ with Weapon:3 is going to outclass any of his mundane allies, without even incurring the normal costs of doing business.
--- End quote ---
Okay, I'm not so good at game balance, so balance-wise this might be a problem. What I'm trying to do is create powers that replicate what we see it the books--and from what we see in the books, in a straight fight where you have prepared wizards and don't have enemies with magic resistance, wizards do indeed outclass their mundane allies, unless those mundane allies are people like Marcone or Kincaid (or Murphy, or...). And when it comes to computer hacking, the wizard is outclassed by their mundane allies. Like I said, I don't understand game balance all that well (it's why I keep posting things looking for help with mechanics) but I thought that you were supposed to have different characters be good at different things. (I mean, obviously, if one player wants to have their character be a vanilla mortal who's super good with a sword or whatever, then probably this power shouldn't be used. But can't you discuss that during character creation, or something?)
--- Quote ---In a very specific spot that not all games go to, and which has built-in consequences when you do try to use it. This is bringing the power plus a weapon rating, everywhere without those consequences.
--- End quote ---
Which is why you have to pay refresh for it, where you get the Nevernever thing for free.
--- Quote ---I don't understand this objection at all.
It's an Earth evocation; just flavored as something different. If anything, the knife or sword or fist as flavor is utterly superfluous.
--- End quote ---
Actually, you've explained my objection perfectly: the knife/sword/fist is superfluous--so why should it be there? If you want an earth evocation, do an earth evocation. If you want to make an attack with a sword, then you get the weapon rating of the sword. If you want to use earth magic to make a really effective attack with a sword, then you should still get the weapon rating of the sword--or the sword should not be involved.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 21, 2019, 04:36:56 PM ---Okay, I'm not so good at game balance, so balance-wise this might be a problem. What I'm trying to do is create powers that replicate what we see it the books--and from what we see in the books, in a straight fight where you have prepared wizards and don't have enemies with magic resistance, wizards do indeed outclass their mundane allies, unless those mundane allies are people like Marcone or Kincaid (or Murphy, or...). And when it comes to computer hacking, the wizard is outclassed by their mundane allies. Like I said, I don't understand game balance all that well (it's why I keep posting things looking for help with mechanics) but I thought that you were supposed to have different characters be good at different things. (I mean, obviously, if one player wants to have their character be a vanilla mortal who's super good with a sword or whatever, then probably this power shouldn't be used. But can't you discuss that during character creation, or something?)
--- End quote ---
What it comes down to is, in most games, there's gonna be more combat than computer hacking, and there's a difference between Wizards having a distinct power advantage (which is reflected in the lore and the mechanics), and other characters being unable to contribute in a frequently-recurring aspect of the game.
Say you have a wizard that went all in on this power, and can freely pop off Weapon:3 attacks at a 10. Even if the average goon has a dodge roll of 5, that means the wizard has as good as an auto-hit attack that stands a good chance of one-shotting whatever he hits unless the GM gives it consequences.
Let's say his teammates are a super strong valkyrie and a mortal cop; the Valkyrie, with a sword, can do Weapon: 5 damage on a hit, but her attack roll tops out at 5. Same with the cop -- she's got an assault rifle at Weapon:3, and a Guns score at 5.
Already, the goons that the wizard is one-shotting are dodging half of the rest of the attacks, and taking less stress each time they do take a hit.
So does the GM adjust things to make it harder for the wizard to hit? If so, his allies are now hopelessly unable to hit the same enemies. Does he handicap the wizard specifically? Then the wizard's player is going to be annoyed.
And there's some slippery slope potential here:
There's already lots of "With X weapon, I do two extra stress" stunts that some on this board advocate; so at one more refresh, it's a Weapon:5 sword being swung from a 10, freely each round.
Plus, sword fighting is as much defense as offense, so why not argue that you can use that super-high bonus to deflect attacks just as easily, with no stress cost?
--- Quote ---Actually, you've explained my objection perfectly: the knife/sword/fist is superfluous--so why should it be there? If you want an earth evocation, do an earth evocation. If you want to make an attack with a sword, then you get the weapon rating of the sword. If you want to use earth magic to make a really effective attack with a sword, then you should still get the weapon rating of the sword--or the sword should not be involved.
--- End quote ---
You're getting too hung up on the flavor. Dresden RPG is not a simulation -- ultimately, stress does not represent how much literal damage has been done; it is an abstract that represents how effective the attack is at taking someone out. That's probably part of why the attack roll adds to the damage — in theory, a single stab with a palm dagger is as effective at killing someone as a supernaturally hot plasma blast from Harry's rod.
Why have one Warden throw fire as a green ball that bounces across the ground, while another shoots little stars? Why have Ramirez specialize in Water evocations when, mechanically, it does the exact same thing as Harry's fire evocations? Why have Billy turn into a werewolf when holding a sword will do about the same damage without worrying about shedding all over the couch?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---What it comes down to is, in most games, there's gonna be more combat than computer hacking, and there's a difference between Wizards having a distinct power advantage (which is reflected in the lore and the mechanics), and other characters being unable to contribute in a frequently-recurring aspect of the game.
Say you have a wizard that went all in on this power, and can freely pop off Weapon:3 attacks at a 10. Even if the average goon has a dodge roll of 5, that means the wizard has as good as an auto-hit attack that stands a good chance of one-shotting whatever he hits unless the GM gives it consequences.
Let's say his teammates are a super strong valkyrie and a mortal cop; the Valkyrie, with a sword, can do Weapon: 5 damage on a hit, but her attack roll tops out at 5. Same with the cop -- she's got an assault rifle at Weapon:3, and a Guns score at 5.
Already, the goons that the wizard is one-shotting are dodging half of the rest of the attacks, and taking less stress each time they do take a hit.
So does the GM adjust things to make it harder for the wizard to hit? If so, his allies are now hopelessly unable to hit the same enemies. Does he handicap the wizard specifically? Then the wizard's player is going to be annoyed.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---You're getting too hung up on the flavor. Dresden RPG is not a simulation -- ultimately, stress does not represent how much literal damage has been done; it is an abstract that represents how effective the attack is at taking someone out. That's probably part of why the attack roll adds to the damage — in theory, a single stab with a palm dagger is as effective at killing someone as a supernaturally hot plasma blast from Harry's rod.
Why have one Warden throw fire as a green ball that bounces across the ground, while another shoots little stars? Why have Ramirez specialize in Water evocations when, mechanically, it does the exact same thing as Harry's fire evocations? Why have Billy turn into a werewolf when holding a sword will do about the same damage without worrying about shedding all over the couch?
--- End quote ---
So, are you going to suggest improvements, or do you just not like this ability, period?
For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming? What if power bonuses only contributed to aiming, rather than the attack value? Would it work better if it was limited to fists, and you had to pay an extra refresh to use it with weapons? Would it work better if you had to cut your conviction + power bonuses in half to use this ability? What if you just have a flat -2 on all rolls using this power? What if you had to split the value of your roll between aiming and attack value? Should this power instead be the ability to do earth magic maneuvers without stress as a supplemental action when attacking with fists/weapons, without the usual -1 penalty?
I appreciate feedback, but it's really annoying when what I'm hearing is "it won't work, and you shouldn't make it work because your reasons for wanting to make it work are stupid." I don't like most roleplaying games, and what makes this one fun is that I really like the Dresden files. As such, I'm trying to create powers that let things work the way they do in the books.
--- Quote ---There's already lots of "With X weapon, I do two extra stress" stunts that some on this board advocate; so at one more refresh, it's a Weapon:5 sword being swung from a 10, freely each round.
--- End quote ---
I hadn't seen these. But, um, why couldn't other characters use them, too? If your valkyrie and mortal gunfighter also have the option of buying these stunts (and probably have more refresh to do it with, honestly) how is this a problem?
--- Quote ---Plus, sword fighting is as much defense as offense, so why not argue that you can use that super-high bonus to deflect attacks just as easily, with no stress cost?
--- End quote ---
Weapons vs. weapons or fists vs. fists, you probably should be able to. Anything else, I feel like common sense would say no. I don't care how good your magic is, you can't deflect bullets with a sword. And while earth magic would let you do things like make your skin as hard as stone, that's normal evocation and should cost stress.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version