The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---While Michael & Harry have undoubtedly gotten closer (especially after SG), also remember how uncomfortable Michael is around some of Harry’s magical abilities (granted it is less so in SG than GP).
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We haven't really seen that since Grave Peril, though. By Death Masks, he seems fine with Harry's magic (if I recall correctly, his only objection in that book is to Harry's proposed demon summoning).
--- Quote ---My larger point here is just that Michael is more of a black/ white person while Harry is shades of gray. Therefore there will always be parts of Harry that Michael will judge (not always a bad thing).
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What. Michael's entire character is built around his identity as someone who doesn't judge people--he tries to help them. Admittedly, Harry sometimes expects Michael to judge him, but Michael always proves him wrong.
--- Quote ---Also, a person can have 2 best friends, especially if he will be sleeping with one of them (probably needs 2 in that case). Also Murphy is on the path to becoming Harry’s girlfriend, so it’s a different kind of friendship.
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True.
--- Quote ---Murphy has always been portrayed as headstrong & willing to do what she thinks is right - in many ways this is a good quality (like in PG or BR), but it is also a double edged sword (like in FM or CD when turned against Harry). I understand why she does what she does (even if a bit of manipulation is thrown in) - it remains consistent with her character. But agreed that since CD I’ve started finding her more annoying than I ever did before. Not to mention that she was the wrong choice in SG - Thomas would’ve been the best & would likely have picked up that Ascher had taken up a Coin.
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Also true.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 26, 2019, 05:10:00 PM ---We haven't really seen that since Grave Peril, though. By Death Masks, he seems fine with Harry's magic (if I recall correctly, his only objection in that book is to Harry's proposed demon summoning).
What. Michael's entire character is built around his identity as someone who doesn't judge people--he tries to help them. Admittedly, Harry sometimes expects Michael to judge him, but Michael always proves him wrong.
True.
Also true.
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I prefer not to place Michael on too high of a pedastal. I mean, he is human too. He has his own biases and opinion.
Michael does not discriminate Harry because of his magic but it is clear Michael don't like magic very much. For example book 8. Harry is corrupted by Laschiel's shadow. In Michael's point of view, the best way out for Harry is too surrender that coin immedietly and repent even if by doing so Harry has to sacrifice his magical talent. Another time when Michael strong opinion and bias displays itself is in book 10, when Harry suspicious behaviour cause by Mab blocking his fire magic made Michael doubt Harry and cause Michael to assume Harry to be under the control of Laschiel's shadow. Harry has to confront Michael about it in order to clear the air.
In some ways, the KoTC is like the white council's warden. The only difference between the two is just KoTC don't force there point of view upon others while wardens tends to force others to follow their rules and will behead you if you don't follow them. However, it does not mean that KoTC like Michael don't have strong opinions and convictions. They just don't force you to follow those opinions because they strongly value Free Will. Michael don't force Harry to stop doing magic. He don't discriminate either. But he still disapprove and from time to time his disapproval causes friction, misunderstanding and distrust. Even someone like Michael is not exempt from such a thing.
Which is why, to me, Murphy's attitude in book 14 or Butters's distrust in book 15 does not bother me very much. In my opinion, such a thing is normal. The stakes are high and everyone who is not afraid is probably an idiot. If you don't grow a bit paranoid in such an environment, you most likely not human in the firstplace, or you'll soon be dead and be disqualified under darwinian law.
In other words, Michael is like everyone else. Maybe he is better than most people, but he is not a saint or anything.
g33k:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on May 27, 2019, 04:40:16 AM ---... For example book 8. Harry is corrupted by Laschiel's shadow. In Michael's point of view, the best way out for Harry is too surrender that coin immedietly and repent even if by doing so Harry has to sacrifice his magical talent...
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Michael was right.
Or rather, he WOULD have been right, for any other wizard.
As Michael explained too Harry, ALL their (extensive, albeit incomplete) records show that corruption is inevitable, that the ONLY people who escape are those who surrender the coins. Harry points out that the records ARE incomplete, so they cannot REALLY know...
But Michael was right. By Lash's testimony, NOBODY in Lasciel's millennia of experience had EVER resisted temptation even a fraction so long as Harry had. Even Nicodemus -- and Anduriel! -- presumed Harry was still under Lash's sway, having the Fallen-shadow disable Harry... And then turn his (their!) back, confident that Harry would be no threat. That is NOT an error that careful players like Nic & Andy make -- if they had EVER met a mortal who could hold out so long, they'd have kept an eye on Harry in that moment.
Maybe "Starborn" is just shorthand for "Mythic Levels of Stubborn," or maybe Harry is too stupid to quit. But whatever it is, Harry did the impossible, and Michael was right to suspect him, right to suggest he abandon his magic.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I prefer not to place Michael on too high of a pedastal. I mean, he is human too. He has his own biases and opinion.
In other words, Michael is like everyone else. Maybe he is better than most people, but he is not a saint or anything.
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Well, I actually think he's portrayed as exactly the kind of person who becomes a saint. I mean, he's human, sure--if Harry got one of his kids killed Michael would lose it, and I'm awaiting the fallout from the Winter Lady thing with baited breath--but "there will always be a part of Harry that Michael judges" seems utterly inconsistent with his character. Michael has been demonstrated, in every book besides Grave Peril (which I put down to either character development or early installment weirdness, depending on my mood) to avoid judging people until he's pushed to breaking point.
--- Quote ---Michael does not discriminate Harry because of his magic but it is clear Michael don't like magic very much. For example book 8. Harry is corrupted by Laschiel's shadow. In Michael's point of view, the best way out for Harry is too surrender that coin immedietly and repent even if by doing so Harry has to sacrifice his magical talent. Another time when Michael strong opinion and bias displays itself is in book 10, when Harry suspicious behaviour cause by Mab blocking his fire magic made Michael doubt Harry and cause Michael to assume Harry to be under the control of Laschiel's shadow. Harry has to confront Michael about it in order to clear the air.
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I started a thread about this issue, actually: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,52773.0.html (Okay, it's not technically about this issue, but the issue is extremely relevant to the topic, so it gets discussed a bunch.)
--- Quote ---Which is why, to me, Murphy's attitude in book 14 or Butters's distrust in book 15 does not bother me very much. In my opinion, such a thing is normal. The stakes are high and everyone who is not afraid is probably an idiot. If you don't grow a bit paranoid in such an environment, you most likely not human in the firstplace, or you'll soon be dead and be disqualified under darwinian law.
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To me, Murphy's attitude in book 14 comes off as profoundly manipulative: I can never work out if she genuinely trusts Harry but is trying to convince him not to trust himself, or if she genuinely distrusts Harry but pretends to trust him either as a control thing or because she feels bad about mistrusting him, or if she originally distrusts him but starts trusting him once she proves that she can manipulate him.
And I don't have a problem with Butters' mistrust; it's his reasoning that is completely stupid. I mean, he basically goes "you weren't here when we needed you, so even though you couldn't possibly know you were needed and I never tried to get in touch with you, I'm going to assume that you're just evil now." If his reasoning had instead been, "When things got bad, I tried to get in touch with you via Thomas, but he said you have a parasite in your mind that would kill you if you left the island, only now you're here without a problem. What's with that? Why couldn't you have done that sooner?" Harry: "Um...I can't really talk about that." Butters: "So, either you've been taken over by this parasite, or you're being forced into doing something against your will and you can't get out of it, or you just don't care about helping people any more. I don't know which it is, but any of those possibilities make you pretty unreliable/untrustworthy," I'd have been fine with that.
Mira:
--- Quote ---While Michael & Harry have undoubtedly gotten closer (especially after SG), also remember how uncomfortable Michael is around some of Harry’s magical abilities (granted it is less so in SG than GP). My larger point here is just that Michael is more of a black/ white person while Harry is shades of gray. Therefore there will always be parts of Harry that Michael will judge (not always a bad thing). Also, a person can have 2 best friends, especially if he will be sleeping with one of them (probably needs 2 in that case). Also Murphy is on the path to becoming Harry’s girlfriend, so it’s a different kind of friendship.
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Michael has absolute trust in Harry as a good man... We know how Harry feels about Murphy, and supposedly how she feels about him... However her feelings may be complicated by what has happened to her in the last book.. Do not underestimate that, it has nothing to do with her feelings for Harry, it is about her dealing with her own inner turmoil and perhaps questioning of her own judgement. That will affect her relationship with Harry.
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