The Dresden Files > DFRPG

Hellfire as two powers

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nadia.skylark:
I was reading a thread in the spoiler post section (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,52786.0.html) and it inspired the idea that Hellfire could actually be two powers: one burning through your soul like soulfire, and one being drawn from Hell itself, like drawing from a place of power. I was wondering how people would write those two powers up.

Also, how would you write up a power that lets you do Michael's faith stuff as a complement for soulfire?

Sanctaphrax:
I don't think there's any need for a custom Power to get faith powers working with Soulfire. Guide My Hand and Righteousness already work well together with Soulfire, and Bless This House doesn't work well with anything. I guess Holy Touch + Soulfire is a bit of a nonbo, but you can just not take holy touch.

Both forms of Hellfire could probably use the canon mechanics. Changing the associated Aspect can do a lot of work.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---I don't think there's any need for a custom Power to get faith powers working with Soulfire. Guide My Hand and Righteousness already work well together with Soulfire, and Bless This House doesn't work well with anything. I guess Holy Touch + Soulfire is a bit of a nonbo, but you can just not take holy touch.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, I only really suggested another sponsored magic equivalent for Heaven as a balance thing--if Hell has two, then Heaven should as well.


--- Quote ---Both forms of Hellfire could probably use the canon mechanics. Changing the associated Aspect can do a lot of work.
--- End quote ---

But how are they different? That's what I'm trying to work out: how soul-powered hellfire is different from place of power-like hellfire, and how the two work together if you have both.

(Part of this is also me trying to figure out why, if a wizard has a Denarian shadow, they would also pick up the coin. I mean, they already have access to hellfire and all the Denarian's knowledge--what do they get out of picking up the coin? Shapeshifting powers may be cool, but I'd think a wizard would rather spend their refresh on spellcasting powers. If, on the other hand, the shadow only gives them place of power-like hellfire, and soul-powered hellfire can only be gotten by picking up the coin, and the two powers amplify each other, then it makes a lot more sense to me. But I'm not sure how to design two sponsored magics in such a way that they have this effect.)

Sanctaphrax:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 11, 2019, 02:28:57 PM ---Yeah, I only really suggested another sponsored magic equivalent for Heaven as a balance thing--if Hell has two, then Heaven should as well.
--- End quote ---

I don't think it's necessary, but if you want to you could add a non-Soulfire heavenly sponsored magic that involves invoking God or his angels rather than using your own soul.


--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 11, 2019, 02:28:57 PM ---But how are they different? That's what I'm trying to work out: how soul-powered hellfire is different from place of power-like hellfire, and how the two work together if you have both.
--- End quote ---

I don't think they're actually separate in the original lore, so how they differ is really up too you.


--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 11, 2019, 02:28:57 PM ---(Part of this is also me trying to figure out why, if a wizard has a Denarian shadow, they would also pick up the coin. I mean, they already have access to hellfire and all the Denarian's knowledge--what do they get out of picking up the coin? Shapeshifting powers may be cool, but I'd think a wizard would rather spend their refresh on spellcasting powers. If, on the other hand, the shadow only gives them place of power-like hellfire, and soul-powered hellfire can only be gotten by picking up the coin, and the two powers amplify each other, then it makes a lot more sense to me. But I'm not sure how to design two sponsored magics in such a way that they have this effect.)
--- End quote ---

In general, buying two Sponsored Magics is not very efficient Refresh-wise.

It's true that the full Denarian package isn't either, but you've got to keep in mind that Refresh doesn't exist in-setting. People can't just decide to buy more Refinements because they want them. You've got to take the Powers you can get.

That said, the conflict between power and free will does exist in-setting and that often lines up nicely with Refresh. A Denarian is likely to go deep into the negatives, becoming unplayably devoid of freedom but very powerful.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---I don't think they're actually separate in the original lore, so how they differ is really up too you.
--- End quote ---

Yes, but I'm having trouble thinking of things that would work here, so I'm looking for ideas. That's why I posted this. If I just wanted to come up with something on my own, I wouldn't have bothered.


--- Quote ---In general, buying two Sponsored Magics is not very efficient Refresh-wise.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, that's why I want the two powers to work together. If they have a multiplicative effect, it should be more efficient.


--- Quote ---It's true that the full Denarian package isn't either, but you've got to keep in mind that Refresh doesn't exist in-setting. People can't just decide to buy more Refinements because they want them. You've got to take the Powers you can get.
--- End quote ---

Refresh may not exist in-universe, but free will does. I have no trouble imagining that a wizard is going to have an easier time saying "I'm not going to endanger my free will to gain the ability to turn into a demon-bear! That wouldn't even be all that helpful," than saying "I'm not going to endanger my free will to gain awesome magical abilities which will help me protect myself and those I care about, defeat my enemies, and generally be extremely useful."

The Denarians clearly offer some kind of magic-boosting effect beyond the hellfire one gets from the shadow, because Lasciel's shadow offers it to Harry as a reason to take up the coin to help deal with potential problems with Little Chicago in Proven Guilty.

(As an alternative to a different form of hellfire, I've considered having the Fallen offer some kind of physical immunity to backlash/spell stress, but this doesn't strike me as particularly balanced. Besides which, I'm interested in different types of sponsored magic and like discussing them.)

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