The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...
DonBugen:
--- Quote ---But given that my premise is essentially "but what if He didn't step in" this isn't really relevant.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---So your actual argument is not that Harry would never pick up a coin in the circumstances stated in my premise--it is that my premise is ludicrous and invalid.
--- End quote ---
It seemed to me that your premise wasn't that Michael wasn't coming (after all, you mentioned Michael); it was that there was a delay and there was an actual fight that broke out, and the heat got turned up. My actual argument IS that Harry wouldn't pick up the coin in those circumstances - I pretty much made that my closing statement. I stand by that.
If you want to argue "What would happen if TWG wasn't going to save Harry or Molly at all," that's a completely different argument, because in Proven Guilty, Dresden's second-guessed TWG's plan perfectly. That implies that TWG's personality and motives are different.
If TWG was actually fundamentally different than he is portrayed in The Dresden Files, that would then mean Dresden is fundamentally wrong in his estimation of TWG's motives. That would mean that Lasciel would be aware that Dresden is incorrect, as she knows TWG far better than most mortals. That would mean that she would be far better able to argue, convince, and manipulate Harry, arguing from a correct standpoint rather than an incorrect standpoint. That would mean that, whether Harry would have accepted the coin or not, it would have been based upon a hypothetical situation in a hypothetical universe that does not in any way reflect how the series is actually portrayed.
I try not to get involved in discussions like that. Starting your premise being "what if X character was different than how he/she is portrayed" is relevant for fan fiction, but not so much for logical discussion. And yeah, I guess, if that's your posed hypothetical statement then I'm going to have to bow out - not because "it's ludicrous and invalid," but just because my only valid contribution is, "Well, that wouldn't happen, because it didn't happen."
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---It seemed to me that your premise wasn't that Michael wasn't coming (after all, you mentioned Michael); it was that there was a delay and there was an actual fight that broke out, and the heat got turned up. My actual argument IS that Harry wouldn't pick up the coin in those circumstances - I pretty much made that my closing statement. I stand by that.
If you want to argue "What would happen if TWG wasn't going to save Harry or Molly at all," that's a completely different argument, because in Proven Guilty, Dresden's second-guessed TWG's plan perfectly. That implies that TWG's personality and motives are different.
--- End quote ---
Ah. I think this is my fault. I was reading an older thread about this topic, and when I posted this thread I forgot to include the context.
What I was thinking about when I wrote was is a debate about whether, if Michael showed up either in the middle of the Harry vs. White Council fight or after Molly had been executed, he would be able to wield Amorrachius against the White Council without it breaking, because he would be fighting out of vengeance. I tend to think that in this situation, the Sword would at the very least not be operating at full capacity, and might very well break.
Thus, the context in which Harry might pick up the coin would be that either Michael has shown up and is losing (possibly with Amorrachius broken) or TWG's contrived coincidence thing was interfered with by other free-willed people and as such He arranged for Michael not to show up in the middle of that fight because He knew it would end badly for team good guys.
Does that make more sense?
Kindler:
Harry has a rather low opinion of himself, I think. In Dead Beat, he works with Lash after he abandons hope, because he doesn't believe that TWG would think he was worth saving. The glimmer of faith he had was only because there was an ex-Denarian there. Harry never thought that TWG would care about him, only that He would naturally want a Denarian stopped. He doesn't think of himself as a good person.
In Proven Guilty, the person Harry respects most—and what Harry probably considers to be the pinnacle of human goodness—has his family at risk. Because he's such a good person, and because he's pretty much seen that TWG does like Michael, Harry has faith that TWG wouldn't let Michael suffer. That's part of the reason he's so furious in Small Favor, I think.
Then in Changes, Harry no longer cares about temptation, really. He's gone full Winchester-in-the-seasons-when-Supernatural-wasn't-awful, ready to do whatever it takes to protect his family. He'd still prefer a less mustache-twirly option, which is why he goes to Winter, but he'd do it if he had to. In fact, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go for the Coin, too. Winter Knight=strong. Winter Denarian=Stronger.
Hell, having Lasciel back in his head might be helping keep back the Winter Knight's baser instincts right now. Lasciel was more articulate, and I doubt she'd have stood for some of the more primal urges the Mantle pushes on Harry.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Harry has a rather low opinion of himself, I think. In Dead Beat, he works with Lash after he abandons hope, because he doesn't believe that TWG would think he was worth saving. The glimmer of faith he had was only because there was an ex-Denarian there. Harry never thought that TWG would care about him, only that He would naturally want a Denarian stopped. He doesn't think of himself as a good person.
In Proven Guilty, the person Harry respects most—and what Harry probably considers to be the pinnacle of human goodness—has his family at risk. Because he's such a good person, and because he's pretty much seen that TWG does like Michael, Harry has faith that TWG wouldn't let Michael suffer. That's part of the reason he's so furious in Small Favor, I think.
--- End quote ---
Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.
--- Quote ---Then in Changes, Harry no longer cares about temptation, really. He's gone full Winchester-in-the-seasons-when-Supernatural-wasn't-awful, ready to do whatever it takes to protect his family. He'd still prefer a less mustache-twirly option, which is why he goes to Winter, but he'd do it if he had to. In fact, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go for the Coin, too. Winter Knight=strong. Winter Denarian=Stronger.
Hell, having Lasciel back in his head might be helping keep back the Winter Knight's baser instincts right now. Lasciel was more articulate, and I doubt she'd have stood for some of the more primal urges the Mantle pushes on Harry.
--- End quote ---
Definitely--or even only calling Lasciel's coin. I always thought that Lasciel or whoever the whisperer was messed that up--I believe that if Harry wanted to live through rescuing Maggie, he would have gone for Lasciel's coin because he knew there was an exit strategy. It was only after he was pushed into being suicidal that Mab started looking like the better option.
morriswalters:
Two possibilities arise. Michael arrives before Molly is executed or he arrives after.
If the first, Michael is traveling with half the Senior Council and they are followed close on by whoever was chasing them. It's hard to see how a fight would evolve out of the chaos of his arrival in this situation.
If the second, then Harry is dead and there will be no fight involving Michael. Harry has sworn to protect her with his life.
In a close quarters fight Harry and Molly would have died quickly. That seems to be established. Harry wouldn't have had time to take advantage of whatever Lasciel could have offered. Reason demands that Harry would have had to make the decision to use either the coin or Mab's offer before entering the circle. And he didn't.
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