The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
segaily:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 23, 2019, 09:36:19 PM ---
Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.
--- End quote ---
One additional thing to keep in mind it is always possible TWG allowed this to happen even if normally TWG would have had the Knights prevent it. The archive has always been neutral. Ivy now most likely hates the Denarians and likes Harry even more. She might now be more likely to do something to oppose the Denarians in the future that would push the boundaries of being neutral. Allowing her to be taken but making sure she was rescued before taking a coin could have just been using the Denarians plan against them. The Knights themselves would never do that because they do not know the future but a being who does might see that letting her be taking was the better long term plan.
In fact I think this is likely the answer to the original post too. If the long term view from TWG is that having them locked up is better because it prevents things TWG does not want to happen then the Knights would be sent to do something other then try to save the people holding the coins. If that Denarian is not going to be a problem then they probably would be sent to give the holder one more chance to save themselves. The knights themselves have to always act one way because they have no idea what will happen going forward. The missions they are given however are based on much more information so to us could seem inconsistent because we do not know the future.
morriswalters:
One way to look at it is to think as the Knight's as a counter weight to the Denarians. For the Knights to exist the Denarians must exist and vice versa. Both the Knights and the Denarians have free will.
TWG can act only in opposition to the force of his counter. Guiding the Knights to the Denarians when they act against innocents is different than acting to save someone who is paying for the exercise of free will. The difference for Marcone and Ivy is that they chose to act with their free will. And as such they are victims to their choices. TWG can't interfere. On the other hand when an Archangel for one side acted he/she was met by the opposing archangel. Mab isn't limited in that respect, so she chose to either kill the Archive or failing that, to save both Marcone and Ivy.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 16, 2019, 05:40:58 PM ---...would the KotC try to break them out? I've heard a theory that the way to trap the Coins in Demonreach is to trap their bearers with them, thus subverting the "meant to be in circulation" issue--they are in circulation, it's just that their hosts can't do anything. The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.
--- End quote ---
No, for a couple reasons:
1. The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
2. The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them. They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them. If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.
The Coin wouldn't be locked up there anyways. The power of a Fallen Archangel would guarantee that didn't happen.
Mira:
--- Quote from: groinkick on March 26, 2019, 01:25:17 AM ---No, for a couple reasons:
1. The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
2. The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them. They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them. If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.
The Coin wouldn't be locked up there anyways. The power of a Fallen Archangel would guarantee that didn't happen.
--- End quote ---
I agree more or less with your points except the last one, because it is hinted at that there are beings and or monsters just as powerful locked away on Demonreach.. Harry may be mistaken
but he seems to feel that the artifacts are safe locked away on Demonreach.. He wouldn'd do that if he thought a Fallen Archangel could get to them.. Then again the artifacts though powerful are not possessed by a fallen angel, that might make a difference, or not depending on where the coins were deposited.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---The difference for Marcone and Ivy is that they chose to act with their free will. And as such they are victims to their choices. TWG can't interfere.
--- End quote ---
How did Marcone and Ivy choose to act with their free will in any way that is meaningfully different than the actions that every person with free will takes?
Also, free will doesn't make it impossible for TWG to interfere, it just makes Him have to be more circumspect. For example, when Michael leaves his kids alone in the house in Grave Peril, he is making the free-willed choice to do so. This does not prevent Father Forthill's car from "coincidentally" breaking down nearby so that there will be someone to watch over Michael's kids.
--- Quote ---No, for a couple reasons:
1. The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
--- End quote ---
The coins, yes. The coin holders, no. That's the part that I think might be a problem.
--- Quote ---2. The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them. They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them. If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.
--- End quote ---
No, the job of the Knights is explicitly to save the Denarians--stopping them from hurting people is what they do when they fail to save them.
Also, they picked up the coin by their own choices, so we know that "they made a choice" is not necessarily going to release the Knights from their responsibility to help them.
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