The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
nadia.skylark:
I think Harry has subconsciously rewritten his memory of the incident because he couldn't reconcile the contradictions in what happened any other way (memory is not notoriously reliable--this happens a lot).
Because think about it: what happens?
Harry forces a standing KotC into a position where awful things happen to her, culminating in him sacrificing her in a ritual spell that causes widespread destruction on a scale sufficient that, based on Ghost Story, huge numbers of people are losing hope/compromising their principles--basically, exactly what Nicodemus was trying to pull off in Death Masks.
And then he dies--fair enough, he believes that people who do this kind of thing deserve to die.
Then comes the problem--because everyone says that things were worse because he died. More than that, he was manipulated into dying by one of the Fallen.
And then he comes back, and the only thing that any of his friends and allies object to is that he's the winter knight. They're worried about what he might become, sure, but none of them see a problem in what he's done aside from killing himself.
And he can't cope. He knows he's a monster, knows he deserves to die, because no matter how awful he feels about it he knows that he would do the same again if it were necessary. And yet, all the people whose judgement he trusts above his own don't see the problem--don't acknowledge that there could be a problem. Hell, Karrin is still willing to back him up when he goes to work for Nicodemus of all people, and she was chosen by the Sword of Faith. And Harry knows something is wrong, knows that none of this makes sense but he's not the most self-reflective person, he can't put the problem into words, much less solve it. Something has to give--and I think what gave is Harry's memory about what happened.
None of which, of course, explains why Nicodemus never brings this up, but that's a slightly different issue.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry forces a standing KotC into a position where awful things happen to her, culminating in him sacrificing her in a ritual spell that causes widespread destruction on a scale sufficient that, based on Ghost Story, huge numbers of people are losing hope/compromising their principles--basically, exactly what Nicodemus was trying to pull off in Death Masks.
--- End quote ---
Susan wasn't forced into anything, she wanted to save her daughter. It was Harry who chose her to wield the Sword of Love, because she was going out of love to save her daughter. She accepted.. In desperation to save their daughter and everyone else he revealed to her Martin's treachery. Let's not lose sight that his betrayal is why little Maggie was on the chop block to begin with.. Yes, it pissed her off, but she had been pissed off before, this time she chose to change and rip Martin's throat out.. With her last human breath she begged Harry to end her life to save their daughter. Again, if the above hadn't happened, little Maggie, Harry, and Eb would have died, Susan still would more than likely have changed as soon as little Maggie's heart was cut out.. The spell itself was of the Red King's making to rid himself of Eb and his family, all Harry did when he killed Susan was reverse the spell and kill the Red King's family.... If you can think of a better way or a less monstrous way to save little Maggie and her rescuers, feel free to write..
--- Quote ---
And he can't cope. He knows he's a monster, knows he deserves to die, because no matter how awful he feels about it he knows that he would do the same again if it were necessary. And yet, all the people whose judgement he trusts above his own don't see the problem--don't acknowledge that there could be a problem. Hell, Karrin is still willing to back him up when he goes to work for Nicodemus of all people, and she was chosen by the Sword of Faith. And Harry knows something is wrong, knows that none of this makes sense but he's not the most self-reflective person, he can't put the problem into words, much less solve it. Something has to give--and I think what gave is Harry's memory about what happened.
--- End quote ---
Murphy was only chosen as a Knight for the night they went to rescue little Maggie.. As of Skin Game she was no longer a Knight, won't go into the problems that occurred afterwards.. However you neglect to mention that Uriel loaned his Grace to Michael, retired but still a Holy Knight so he could physically accompany Harry on the mission, it was that important.. Also Harry was never really working for Nic in the first place, it was all a double cross orchestrated by Mab, Kringle with a lot of help from Mr Gray... Harry manages to keep all relics except the Grail out of Nic's hands and selects the next Holy Knight, Butters.. Do you think any of that would happen if Harry was really this deluded monster who is just kidding himself?
Talby16:
Who knows if Susan would have either reached the same conclusion Harry did on her own and acted or if her desperation to save her daughter would have left her with her only alternative to embrace her inner vamp. Harry couldn't chance a delay and gave her a push to get her there out of desperation.
I truly believe that suffered from PTSD due to that event and may have unconsciously blocked out some of the more traumatic moments.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Talby16 on February 19, 2019, 05:31:25 PM ---Who knows if Susan would have either reached the same conclusion Harry did on her own and acted or if her desperation to save her daughter would have left her with her only alternative to embrace her inner vamp. Harry couldn't chance a delay and gave her a push to get her there out of desperation.
I truly believe that suffered from PTSD due to that event and may have unconsciously blocked out some of the more traumatic moments.
--- End quote ---
I agree about the PTSD not just from this but a number of things... I doubt that Susan would have stood by and watched her daughter, then Harry die and not be affected by it.. Nor do I think she would have just stood there helpless as the Red King proceeded to cut her daughter's heart out.. She would have attacked, either way she was going to die.
--- Quote ---I agree, it is a great scene, probably my favorite in the book, but in it Harry explicitly blames Martin for having set off Susan's wrath when in fact Harry made her focus on what Martin had done in order to enrage her enough to kill Martin. Harry tells Michael almost exactly what happened, and is obviously racked with guilt, but he distorts that one detail (arguably the worst thing about what happened, because it intentionally caused Susan's death, however necessary it was to save Maggie). My question is why the distortion: shame or mantle-assisted self-delusion?
--- End quote ---
Because of his guilt, he has a hard time admitting to it, yes shame, he cannot face his daughter because he killed her mother... If it was mantle assisted self-delusion, he would be able to rationalize what he did and like a good social-path, feel no guilt at all...
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Susan wasn't forced into anything, she wanted to save her daughter. It was Harry who chose her to wield the Sword of Love, because she was going out of love to save her daughter. She accepted.. In desperation to save their daughter and everyone else he revealed to her Martin's treachery. Let's not lose sight that his betrayal is why little Maggie was on the chop block to begin with.. Yes, it pissed her off, but she had been pissed off before, this time she chose to change and rip Martin's throat out..
--- End quote ---
In Changes, the narration makes it pretty clear that Harry believes that he intentionally manipulated her, and that it was an awful thing to do. I don't have the book with me, but I believe that it was something like "god forgive me for what I did next, because I never will."
--- Quote ---Murphy was only chosen as a Knight for the night they went to rescue little Maggie.. As of Skin Game she was no longer a Knight, won't go into the problems that occurred afterwards..
--- End quote ---
I agree with you, but I think Harry doesn't.
--- Quote ---However you neglect to mention that Uriel loaned his Grace to Michael, retired but still a Holy Knight so he could physically accompany Harry on the mission, it was that important.. Also Harry was never really working for Nic in the first place, it was all a double cross orchestrated by Mab, Kringle with a lot of help from Mr Gray... Harry manages to keep all relics except the Grail out of Nic's hands and selects the next Holy Knight, Butters..
--- End quote ---
None of this was clear when Harry told Michael what happened during Changes, and in the same conversation Harry made it clear that he felt that working for Nic contributed to him feeling like a monster even though he was planning to double cross him.
--- Quote ---If you can think of a better way or a less monstrous way to save little Maggie and her rescuers, feel free to write..
--- End quote ---
I don't think there was a better way at all, but that doesn't change the fact that it was horrible.
--- Quote ---Do you think any of that would happen if Harry was really this deluded monster who is just kidding himself?
--- End quote ---
I don't think Harry is deluded or a monster--quite the contrary. I think that Harry is a genuinely good person who was put in an impossible situation, coped with it admirably at the time, and fell apart a little afterward. If he wasn't a good person, he would have no reason to feel bad about what happened.
Human brains rewrite memories all the time. It can even be triggered by someone asking questions the wrong way--this is why police officers need to be careful when questioning witnesses. I think Harry is less susceptible to this than most people because he's trained his memory as part of being an investigator, but short of having an eidetic memory no one is immune to it completely.
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