Author Topic: Proven Guilty Molly  (Read 5097 times)

Offline Con

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Proven Guilty Molly
« on: November 04, 2018, 07:25:58 AM »
Just rereading Proven Guilty I had a crazy thought. What if Winter Lady Molly was/is the one that sent the fetches?

It's generally agreed that some time travel stuff is affected in Proven Guilty, so what if she's the one that sends fetches after her previous self.

Just a thought I thought worth sharing.

Offline Mira

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2018, 01:13:11 PM »
Just rereading Proven Guilty I had a crazy thought. What if Winter Lady Molly was/is the one that sent the fetches?

It's generally agreed that some time travel stuff is affected in Proven Guilty, so what if she's the one that sends fetches after her previous self.

Just a thought I thought worth sharing.


Maybe, but if she did she still ran the risk of losing her head..  So knowing her own history, knowing how close it was, why would she do that?

Offline raidem

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 05:43:00 PM »
I do like the idea that TT Lady Molly appears in PG.  However, I like to maintain minimization of TT's effect on herself.  I think it has also been established that it was Mab that sent the Fetches.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 07:02:43 PM »
I do like the idea that TT Lady Molly appears in PG.  However, I like to maintain minimization of TT's effect on herself.  I think it has also been established that it was Mab that sent the Fetches.

I'm not sure if anything has "been established" as to what happened off page in Proven Guilty. There are some pretty well thought out theories. There are some generally favored ideas (like TT). There are some ideas likely, but not necessarily, debunked by later novels. And then, there are some pretty crazy ideas that some people believe wholeheartedly.

Offline raidem

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 08:04:38 PM »
Nah, there is WOJ that Mab sent the Fetches.


Now, if Mab=Molly then yeah, the Mab/Molly TT idea included could have sent the Fetches but the WOJ clearly establishes that Mab sent Fetches to retrieve Molly.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 08:06:27 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 03:14:41 AM »
Nah, there is WOJ that Mab sent the Fetches.

I think I vaguely remember that. Do you have that handy?

Sometimes I wonder about WOJ because I've seen Jim (on Youtube) say some stuff that was just wrong. The most recent example is that Harry looked at the Word of Kemmler with his Sight and that's how he could have performed a Dark Hollow in Changes. Jim himself says that he has about 12 versions of each book in his head, so maybe that's how it happened in one of the books that didn't end up being Dead Beat.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 09:49:15 AM »
I think I vaguely remember that. Do you have that handy?

Sometimes I wonder about WOJ because I've seen Jim (on Youtube) say some stuff that was just wrong. The most recent example is that Harry looked at the Word of Kemmler with his Sight and that's how he could have performed a Dark Hollow in Changes. Jim himself says that he has about 12 versions of each book in his head, so maybe that's how it happened in one of the books that didn't end up being Dead Beat.
The book was in German. Harry could not read it but Lasciel could. That is the version of woj I seem to remember but I never can find them anyway.

I do not think the stuff is that difficult once you get the idea anyway, that is what Grevaine said about the darkhallow in dead beat.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 11:59:45 AM »
Irrespective of any WOJ you can see what the raid on Arctis Tor accomplished.  It pulled Winter off the borders of Summer.  Which let Summer pound on the Reds.  The raid also told you why Winter was at the frontiers.  It told you  who threw fire at Winters Wellspring.  And it introduced you to the Adversary.  Later books show the chain between the Gatekeepers knowledge of Black Magic going down in Chicago in Proven Guilty and who might have told him, as well as how she knew.

So how would Lady Molly fit into that?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 01:42:00 PM »
At that moment Molly was just bait for Harry.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 08:59:50 PM »
I'm considering how many ducks she got in one shot.  Currently I'm thinking eldest Fetch might have worn out his Winter welcome, and may have been one of Mab's targets.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 12:10:05 AM »
I think I vaguely remember that. Do you have that handy?

I remember one that PG worked out really well for Mab despite the appearance of her home getting beaten up on. I don't recall explicit confirmation that she sent the fetches, though.

That seems like kind of a big mystery to just give away the answer to, really.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 12:15:31 AM »
Why would Mab need Harry to draw Winter's forces off Summer's borders? Was she incapable of doing that herself?

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 01:07:38 AM »
Because Mab doesn't have free will.  She wanted to respond to the Reds but couldn't. 


Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2018, 01:38:38 AM »
Because Mab doesn't have free will.  She wanted to respond to the Reds but couldn't.

Wasn't the Reds' trespass against Summer though? And Winter was only massing on the borders out of fear that Summer would hit them while their Knight was out of action rather than pay the Reds back?

Not having free will like a mortal is one thing, but that seems really extreme in the direction of troop movements being governed by instinct rather than conscious strategy. Besides, I don't think Lily would have found Mab's posture so inexplicable if it was a matter of Winter must do this in circumstances where they're disadvantaged by the margin of a Knight. Each side seems to have a pretty good sense of what's going to be driving the other in a given situation.

I think Mab had her troops far from Arctic Tor as a trap to figure out who else the infection had spread to from Lea, and / or restrict Maeve's ability to spread it around the army.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty Molly
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2018, 03:34:15 AM »
Quote
“You remember the Red Court’s attack last year,” he said. “That they called up Outsiders and assaulted us within the realm of Faerie itself.”
“Bad move, so I’ve heard. The Faeries are going to take it out of their hides.”
“So we all thought,” the old man said. “In fact, Summer declared war upon the Red Court and began preliminary assaults on them. But Winter hasn’t responded—and Summer hasn’t done much more than secure its borders.”
“Queen Mab didn’t declare war?”
“No.”
I frowned. “Never thought she’d pass up the chance. She’s all about carnage and bloodshed.”
At least consider the possibility that Mab didn't send the fetches or kidnap Molly.  That the fetches may be there to draw attention to the Black magic in Chicago, goaded by the Scarecrow who might be controlled by the Adversary.  Consider the outcomes if the Council executes Molly or if she is Killed at Arctis Tor. This is a loss to either the Council or Mab. Depending on how Molly dies. 

Bob's theory on time travel is misdirection, if I'm in the same ballpark with the story.  Mab sends the Gatekeeper.  It's only in Cold Days that you find how close the Gatekeeper is to Mab. 

Madrigal says that he has been scheduled for a year.  Don't you find it convenient that it all goes down when he is in town?  And then the Jinn gets whacked by the Scarecrow, who has no reason to be there.  Certainly Harry thought it strange.  It becomes more understandable in White Knight.

And why attack Arctis Tor at all?  Everyone in Faerie would have done exactly like they did when Harry used Summer Fire.  There's more to it but  it's late.

Mab is running multiple games countering the Adversary.