The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Vadderung former Gatekeeper.

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Con:
First theirs the obvious appearence, both the Gatekeeper and Vadderung have one eye of what appears to be steal, and according to most myths about Odin, he sacrificed his eye for knowledge of magic.

Bear with me. Vadderung clearly knows about the Island and it's purpose, he outright states so himself.


--- Quote from: Cold Days; Chapter 21 ---"What I mean" he said "is that I know about your island. I know where it came from. I know what it does. I know what's beneath it."

--- End quote ---

Then Vadderung shows his extensive knowledge of the island and time in relation to magic, which seems perfectly in line with knowledge a Gatekeeper has.


--- Quote from:  Cold Days; Chapter 21 --- "Idiots" he breathed. "Even is they could defeat the banefire..."
"Wait" I said "Banefire"
"The fail-safe" Vadderung said. "The fire the island showed you"
....
"It is the only way" Vadderung said. "If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well..."
....
"Not bad" Vadderung said "The end"
....
"The island cannot accept it as a possibility" Vadderung said absently.
--- End quote ---

All of this suggests a tremendous amount of knowledge by Vadderung regarding the Island.Next Vadderung goes into a detailed discussion in regards to time, space and magic.


--- Quote from: Cold Days; Chapter 21 --- Vadderung waved a hand. "Nonesense. There are laws that govern the progression of time in relation to space, like everything else."
"Meaning what?"
"Meaning that the echoes caused by temporal event are proportionately greater than the span of time that was bridged" he said "Had the attack been launched from a century ago or hence, the echoes of it would have begun far, far in advance of the event--- centuries ago. These echoes have appeared only within the past few days. I would guess roughly that the attack must originate only hours from the actual, real time occurance"
--- End quote ---
Now first their is a description of what limits the Gatekeepers, Foresight/Hindsight in Proven Guilty thats relevant.

--- Quote from:  Proven Guilty; Chapter Six ---"Because if he significantly altered what happened with his knowledge of the future it could cause all sorts of temporal instabilities. It could cause new parallel realities to split off from the point of alterations he couldn't predict or kind of backlash into his consciousness and drive him insane"
....
"But if your car never got stolen" Bob said "then how did he come to know to come back and warn you?"
I frowned
"That's paradox and it can have all kinds of nasty backlash. Theory hold that it could even destroy our reality if it happened in a weak enough spot."
.....
"If it's done subtly enough, indirectly enough you can get all kinds of things changed. Like for example, he tells you that your car is going to be stolen. So you move it to a parking garage, where instead of getting stolen by the junkie who was going to shoot you and tale the car on the street, you get jacked by a professional who takes the car without hurting you- because by slightly altering the fate of the car, he indirectly alters yours"
--- End quote ---

Then we get the explanation that counters Bobs explanation of the problem of Paradox.


--- Quote from: Cold Days; Chapter 21 --- "Paradox is an overrated threat. There is... a quality similar to inertia at work, Once an event has occured, there is an extremely strong tendency for that event to occur. The larger, more significant or more energetic the event, the more it tends to remain as it originally happened, despite any interference."
I frowned. "There's... a law of the conservation of history?"
Vadderung grinned. "I've never heard it phrased quite like that, but it's accurate enough. In any event overcoming that inertia require's tremendous energy, will and a measure of simple luck. If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future."
.....
" A twinned universe" Vadderung said "A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather"
.....
"Meddling with time is an irrationally, outrageously, catastrophically, dangerous and costly business. I encourage you to avoid it at all costs."
.....
"Because the energy requirements are astronomical" he said "Bridging a temporal gap of any length is something utterly beyond the reach of any mortal practitioner alone. Doing such a thing and then trying to project the spell over a distance as well? The difficulty of it would be prohibitive. And do not forget how much water surrounds the island, which will tend to mitigate any energy sent toward it--- that's one reason the Well was built there."
--- End quote ---

Plus a little subtle hint at foresight/hindsight


--- Quote from:  COld Days; Chapter 21 ---"Perhaps" he murmured "you already have"
--- End quote ---
Theirs also myths about Odin, hanging himself for more knowledge or power. which reflects Vadderungs statement to Harry about death.

--- Quote from: Cold Days; Chapter 21 ---"Fewer try it then you might think"
....
"Nothing that significant just happens, Dresden"
.....(later on in the chapter)
"Wizard...you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It has opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignificance"
"Meaning what?" I asked
There was no humour at all in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever, you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting"
--- End quote ---



Okay so with all this knowledge about Old Ones, and Outsiders and the Island, plus the similarities in appearence, and mystique of knowledge theirs also another fact that contributes to the theory that Vadderung used to be the Gatekeeper.

We know from his reveal that Vadderung is Kringle.

--- Quote from: Cold Days; Chapter 53 --- "Many, many mantles are worn--or discarded-- on Halloween night, wizard."
...
I saw Vadderung's wolfish features lurking inside Kringle's
--- End quote ---

So we know mantles can be discarded.

Finally the Outer Gates need an army to combat the Outsiders, before it was Winter it would make sense that it would be Einherjaar, Warriors dying in battle over thousands of years, would create a large army to which battle could be joined against the Outsiders at the Gates.

Yuillegan:
I have wondered this before. Not so much that Vadderung was Gatekeeper (which does makes sense) but that Vadderung used to have the Eye that the Gatekeeper uses.

There are a few myths about characters losing Eyes. In the Greco-Roman myths Perseus on his way to killing the Gorgons and Medusa encounters "the Grey Ladies", three old woman with one tooth and one eye between them. From that eye, they can see the whole world which Perseus uses to find the location of the Gorgons. Perhaps those three woman are related to or part of the Fates/Mothers? One myth that stands out is the God of the Air and Kings Horus, son of Osiris (God of the Underworld) losing his Eye in battle against the God of the Desert and Chaos, Set (or Seth - depending on your spelling). Could Odin have been Horus? It wouldn't surprise me if Jim ties a few myths together.

A while back there was a few theories on the former Guardians of the Outer Gates. I think the prevailing theory was that Angels were the original Guardians and then it was a few other mythologies (including the Greco-Roman) and then the Norse. What was never really settled is whether the binary system of the fae courts existed i.e. whether it was for example the Jotuns being the Winter Court and the Aesir being the Summer Court OR whether there was no binary split and the Jotuns are the Outsiders and the Aesir were the Fae.

There were excellent arguments both ways - not helped by more than a few contradictions in the text and WOJ. For instance Jim discusses how the Courts were split on purpose and that the Fae were the creation of beings who were losing influence in the world. This would tend to support the idea that there was no split until the Fae.

But there is also in the text how some Fae like the Leanansidhe discuss the how the Formor are cousins of the Jotun. And how the Formor are related to the Fae. Which would tend to suggest that the Jotuns were not Outsiders. Unless you go in for my theory that the Formor have the blood of the outsiders in them, hence being cousins of the Jotun.

But there are further ideas that Mab, Mother Winter and the Winter Court have strong similarities to the Jotuns. It is a complex topic. I do suspect in one form or another something akin to the Mother's has always existed to defend reality (a la the Fates/Norns etc.) But what beings were from them is very very difficult to guess.

I am not saying he was officially the Gatekeeper - though I think it is more likely than not that he once possessed that Eye. And I do believe you are right - I think that he did die for knowledge. Interestingly historians tend to agree that the story of Odin being hung on the tree and dying and being reborn comes after the Christians faith came to Scandinavia and as many cultures did (especially the Vikings) they adopted elements of the Christian faith to connect it to their own. I think this could be significant in the Dresden Files.  I personally am of the opinion that Odin was a mortal wizard who completed a rite of ascension to become a God. But after a while he realised he had to forfeit some of his power to maintain his influence in the world - which likely corresponds to waning of the Norse gods influence and the retreat of the Jotuns and the Norse Gods losing their way. I suspect he had the option to bow out of mortal affairs but chose not to.

Vadderung is a very interesting character. We have never actually confirmed him as Odin, though it is heavily implied and guessed at by Harry. We know he taught the original Merlin - which means he likely influenced the formation of the White Council. We know he has had many identities over the centuries, and he is going by Vadderung this time. And when he gets involved, he goes all in, but that normally means things are about to get really bad. We know he is stockpiling for the apocalypse/Ragnarok and that his children have gone astray. We also know that there is an implied fued between Mab and him and that he wears his Kringle mask in order to keep the peace. We also know that Mab assumed her duties in 1066 - the year of the last great Viking raid, commonly thought of the year the Viking age came to an end. We also know during that time a Starborn was running around, the old Mother Summer died or abdicated, the old Summer Queen took her place, the Summer Lady stepped up to being Summer Queen, and the Winter Queen died, causing Mab to step up. It is speculated this could also have been when the Courts were split. An interesting time for Vadderung. We also know that Uriel considers Vadderung to be in a similar line of work - which is interesting for two reasons. Uriel both preserves and nurtures freedom of choice, we also know that he is Heaven's wetworks man and chief spook. So which field is Vadderung in? My money is on both - especially considering more than once we have had significance around assassins and spooks. So I wonder what Vadderung does in that area? We definitely know he is the protecting freedom game. And of course he is a psychopomp - he guides the souls of the dead to the afterlife. I think a lot of reveals about Vadderung will open up the world of the Dresden Files in a big way.

Con:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 01, 2018, 01:16:20 AM ---

A while back there was a few theories on the former Guardians of the Outer Gates. I think the prevailing theory was that Angels were the original Guardians and then it was a few other mythologies (including the Greco-Roman) and then the Norse.
--- End quote ---


Agreed


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 01, 2018, 01:16:20 AM ---There were excellent arguments both ways - not helped by more than a few contradictions in the text and WOJ. For instance Jim discusses how the Courts were split on purpose and that the Fae were the creation of beings who were losing influence in the world. This would tend to support the idea that there was no split until the Fae.
--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 01, 2018, 01:16:20 AM ---But there is also in the text how some Fae like the Leanansidhe discuss the how the Formor are cousins of the Jotun. And how the Formor are related to the Fae. Which would tend to suggest that the Jotuns were not Outsiders. Unless you go in for my theory that the Formor have the blood of the outsiders in them, hence being cousins of the Jotun.

But there are further ideas that Mab, Mother Winter and the Winter Court have strong similarities to the Jotuns. It is a complex topic. I do suspect in one form or another something akin to the Mother's has always existed to defend reality (a la the Fates/Norns etc.) But what beings were from them is very very difficult to guess.
--- End quote ---

My theory is that most nature Gods, Deities. Powerful Spirits and Creatures became Fae in order to survive. While the defeated Pantheons of several religions banded together to create the Fomor. WHich is backed up by Lea's description and explanation of them, as well as Bob's


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 01, 2018, 01:16:20 AM ---I personally am of the opinion that Odin was a mortal wizard who completed a rite of ascension to become a God. But after a while he realised he had to forfeit some of his power to maintain his influence in the world - which likely corresponds to waning of the Norse gods influence and the retreat of the Jotuns and the Norse Gods losing their way. I suspect he had the option to bow out of mortal affairs but chose not to.
--- End quote ---


A hundred percent agreed, I too have the theory that Vadderung used to be a Wizard that ascended, which actually fits with a lot of Viking Lore. Viking's believed Odin traveled aorund the world as a wizened old user of witchcraft and magic.

Although theirs also the theory that he is actually, Thor upgraded which is supported by his name Being Donar Vadderung or Thunder Younger Father


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 01, 2018, 01:16:20 AM ---Vadderung is a very interesting character. We have never actually confirmed him as Odin, though it is heavily implied and guessed at by Harry. We know he taught the original Merlin - which means he likely influenced the formation of the White Council. We know he has had many identities over the centuries, and he is going by Vadderung this time. And when he gets involved, he goes all in, but that normally means things are about to get really bad. We know he is stockpiling for the apocalypse/Ragnarok and that his children have gone astray. We also know that there is an implied fued between Mab and him and that he wears his Kringle mask in order to keep the peace. We also know that Mab assumed her duties in 1066 - the year of the last great Viking raid, commonly thought of the year the Viking age came to an end. We also know during that time a Starborn was running around, the old Mother Summer died or abdicated, the old Summer Queen took her place, the Summer Lady stepped up to being Summer Queen, and the Winter Queen died, causing Mab to step up. It is speculated this could also have been when the Courts were split. An interesting time for Vadderung. We also know that Uriel considers Vadderung to be in a similar line of work - which is interesting for two reasons. Uriel both preserves and nurtures freedom of choice, we also know that he is Heaven's wetworks man and chief spook. So which field is Vadderung in? My money is on both - especially considering more than once we have had significance around assassins and spooks. So I wonder what Vadderung does in that area? We definitely know he is the protecting freedom game. And of course he is a psychopomp - he guides the souls of the dead to the afterlife. I think a lot of reveals about Vadderung will open up the world of the Dresden Files in a big way.

--- End quote ---

My theory is Vadderung takes more direct action than Uriel and provides direct muscle and advice for the fight, while Uriel is restricted and bound to act as a balance to whatever evil does. Vadderung has more freedom to act because he's Mortal, and finds the idea of it awesome as per WOJ.

groinkick:
Dang nice job getting all that information...  Lot of work.

Yuillegan:
Not sure that all of them became Fae, but I certainly think most of the Gods and Spirits helped create/empower them for varying reasons. I have long thought that the purpose of the polytheistic gods (in the DV) is to protect and guide humanity against the monsters. Why monsters and demons exist is another thing but it wouldn't surprise me if the Outsiders have something to do with it.

The Vadderung = former wizard does make a lot of sense. I certainly think he was a wizard before even the predecessors to the White Council, when magic allowed you a lot more leeway.

I have never heard the theory he is Thor upgraded...but it sort of makes sense with his name...I don't know if it fits the series well though. It could be that JB just liked the name enough to ignore some of it's subtleties. Who knows though? It always takes me back to that WOJ that the Being never changes, just how we perceive them. Part of the Free Will thing I'd guess.


--- Quote from: Con on November 01, 2018, 05:07:25 AM ---My theory is Vadderung takes more direct action than Uriel and provides direct muscle and advice for the fight, while Uriel is restricted and bound to act as a balance to whatever evil does. Vadderung has more freedom to act because he's Mortal, and finds the idea of it awesome as per WOJ.

--- End quote ---

Yeah I think that is pretty right. I suspect that it is largely to do with the scope of their activities. Vadderung likes to be very hands on, at the micro level (relative to Uriel). Whereas Uriel is focussed on a multi-universe scale conflict. He has to look at the bigger picture, even if he would like not to. In fact he actually has been stepping in a lot more as the series goes on. So much for being the quiet one, we have literally never had any of the others around (that we know of). Minor hint of Raphael and a mention of Michael. Curious.

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