The Dresden Files > DF Books
White Court: emotions
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---I've been saying that there is no such thing as evil, good, bad, or otherwise *objectively* for a bit now and even said I don't think free will as we typically think of it even exists. :D
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---And, if a society imposes that struggle, then one might even say that it's cruelty.
--- End quote ---
This is true in the real world, it isn't true in the Dresdenverse. In the real world morals are a social construct, if that is true then cruelty lies on the same line as evil as a social convention. So if society imposes a framework that we have to live within, it can't be cruelty within that context. That may change over time. IMO. YMMV.
In the Dresdenverse JB has picked his ground and described evil as an absolute. In that world cruelty is defined against that absolute. And I'll grant you, that ground is shifty, twisty and sinkhole ridden, not to mention warped and woofed.
Now that I have made this as clear as mud perhaps I should quit while I'm not too far behind.
Arjan:
A lot depends on how you look at it. The red court sees themselves as a separate species for a reason. It is just the same reason we see ourselves as distinct from cows, it makes it easier to kill and eat them. That is why Arrianne continuously has to repeat to herself that we are cattle, because she was born human.
We do not have to buy into that story. We don't have to see ourselves as an inferior species only usable as a food source (and paradoxically also the stock they recruit from).
There is an alternative story that makes more sense. Ask Susan and her friends. The red court is an infection. The infected can actually do two things. They can remember who they are and try to live with it and protect the rest of humanity against this infection.
Or they can give in. Forget who they are, see themselves as different and as a rabid dog they can kill and eat uninfected humans and spread the disease.
We have rules for that even in our real world. If a tuberculosis patient refuses treatment and is infectious he is locked up and treatment is forced in the name of public safety.
You can extrapolate from that in case dangerously infected humans band together in secret societies to eat, infect and enslave other people. What Harry did was not genocide, it was a public health measure. Only the terminally ill were killed anyway, the rest was saved from a dangerous infection they were fighting all the time.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---The red court is an infection. The infected can actually do two things. They can remember who they are and try to live with it and protect the rest of humanity against this infection.
--- End quote ---
And thus we go full circle.
--- Quote ---The difference between Thomas and Lara is that Thomas cares and struggles against what he is. It's a narrow hair and JB splits it.
--- End quote ---
Putting that aside. I personally don't care how the Reds might see me. I see them as apex predators. But a wolf attacks the herd at it peril. JB brings in good and evil. I don't need it. Being a narcissist it's all about me. I could kill off the Reds with absolutely no tugs on what little conscience I possess. In the same way I would kill a Black Widow. If they didn't want to die they should have chosen other victims. Like cows.
I still liked them better as antagonists. The Fomor(or whatever) leave me unexcited. Turtlenecks. I had bad flashbacks to 60's fashion nightmares.
Fcrate:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on October 25, 2018, 12:27:36 PM ---I personally don't care how the Reds might see me. I see them as apex predators. But a wolf attacks the herd at it peril. JB brings in good and evil. I don't need it. Being a narcissist it's all about me. I could kill off the Reds with absolutely no tugs on what little conscience I possess. In the same way I would kill a Black Widow. If they didn't want to die they should have chosen other victims. Like cows.
I still liked them better as antagonists. The Fomor(or whatever) leave me unexcited. Turtlenecks. I had bad flashbacks to 60's fashion nightmares.
--- End quote ---
You nailed it. While I don't necessarily see them as evil, I'd kill any vamp that attacks me, or that I see attacking other humans and I'd be the good guy. Its considered taking care of my fellow humans and protecting my own self interest. Again, its the "us and them" philosophy. We do the same to cannibals and no one calls us the bad guys for it. Just because they can only eat humans doesn't mean that we should allow them to do it.
KipIngram:
--- Quote from: Ananda on October 22, 2018, 10:28:11 PM ---In summation, those pesky vampires aren’t, by necessity, bad guys or whatever you said, for eating. In fact, it might be unethical to not allow them to eat at all. I think the standard of judgement would be in the details of the treatment of their food sources, thus full circle to my initial comment paralleling the human relationship with other animals.
--- End quote ---
This is a thought I've had at times. The only way to flat out condemn the vampires is to take the position that they are less worthy of life than humans. Once you accept that premise, then the whole issue is easy - down with the vampires, period. But things become much more complex if you start out with the premise that all sentient, thinking beings are equally worthy of life.
For that matter, even presuming that sentience makes a difference isn't a given - I do kill bugs that come into my house, but even as I do it I generally don't "hate on them" - I recognize that they're just "trying to get by in the world." You really can't morally judge an organism or species for trying to survive.
Now, that said, the methods employed by the majority of the vampires we see in the Dresdenverse aren't kosher - even the ones that attempt to preserve the lives of their prey most often hold that prey if not in overt captivity then in a "locked in" socioeconomic situation that they can't escape. The prey is not offered a choice. Even Thomas's customers at his salon aren't really choosing, because they don't know what's going down.
The only morally acceptable way to approach all of this, in my eyes, would be for the vampires to come out, reveal themselves, and say "We need <this> and <that> from you - what can we do for you that will convince you to let us have it?" I.e., a fair market arrangement with both sides fully informed and choosing to go forward.
Short of that, the vampires are behaving in a criminal fashion to one degree or another, and opposing that is perfectly acceptable. Whether or not that behavior warrants the death penalty really depends on how the specific vampire has approached his or her "feeding process."
Honestly, I would give strong consideration to shaving, say, five years off of my lifespan in exchange for regular attention from Lara Raith for the rest of my life. :P
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