The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: vultur on July 12, 2018, 04:53:29 AM ---Harry says in Turn Coat that wards that "suggest" people not notice someplace are generally accepted in the Council as not violating the Law. He says the same thing about the sleep spell he uses on Evelyn Derek (he calls it "grey" magic, but says the Council accepts it).
There seems to be some sort of established distinction here, but it's never clearly explained.
It doesn't seem to be as simple as emotions vs directly forcing actions, either -- the way Molly's spell in PG is described, it seems to be emotion-based (fear), and Harry never even tries to argue at her trial that that makes it a non-violation or even a gray area...
--- End quote ---
Just like placing an illusion in someone’s head in stead of creating a phantasm but the Merlin did exactly that to explain his battle plan in turncoat.
The communication spell between Elaine and Harry is nowhere described as breaking the laws or even dubious. The same for the mental training Molly and Harry did, invitation is important.
But just flooding someone with some emotion might be acceptable as well. What Molly did was invading a mind to couple an emotion to an action in an effort to change a persons nature, even soul. That is so obvious law breaking that nobody could argue anything else.
If some wizard does it in the books and no issue is made of the wizard or the deed it at all then it probably is not a violation.
vultur:
--- Quote from: Arjan on July 12, 2018, 05:30:36 AM ---But just flooding someone with some emotion might be acceptable as well. What Molly did was invading a mind to couple an emotion to an action in an effort to change a persons nature, even soul. That is so obvious law breaking that nobody could argue anything else.
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Oh it clearly breaks the Law, I agree. But why? That is, how is the distinction made?
It can't be because the emotion is used to induce an action, because the "don't notice me" ward that Harry says is generally accepted does that too (inducing people to go on by rather than stop and look).
Changing their nature/soul... oh, I agree it's probably something like that, but how is that defined? It seems to me that one could just as easily argue that an addiction in and of itself compromises free will, and so countering that with an emotional spell actually ends up with the person having a greater degree of free will - which seems to be the opposite of 'enthrallment'.
(Now, Molly's spell had other negative effects because she was untrained and, in Nelson's case, angry - but it's not described as "it would have been OK with the Laws if you knew how to do it right".)
Fcrate:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 12, 2018, 04:09:36 AM ---People can only run around naked when there's a love potion involved?
There's a dozen other conclusions you could come to based on what he saw.
--- End quote ---
Yes, and based on the fact that Susan is (sorry, was) way out of Harry's league, the first one to come to mind is prostitution. Second would be compulsion.
--- Quote from: Mira on July 12, 2018, 04:27:03 AM ---But the spirit of it kept Morgan on Harry's ass for ten years!
--- End quote ---
Let's just say Morgan is a tender spirit. And completely duty bound.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 11, 2018, 07:59:25 PM ---The production of the love potion -- and any other potion -- involves using magic. The text is explicit about this.
As the potion is magic, any changes it makes in a person are magical in nature, and thus part of the law. Note in Turn Coat, how Peabody's law violations are centered around his inks, i.e., a potion he concocted to break the laws of magic.
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Actually I don't know if this is accurate. When you go back and read the part in Storm Front where Harry makes the potion he uses magical energies to activate the potion but the objects in the potion react to both the wizard, and the drinker. Like Bob saying that the love potion needs money because it's sexy, and chocolate because women love chocolate. The magical energies Harry is using to activate the potion is not the same as when you enter a person's mind, and you must really believe in what you're doing. That requires real belief, and the real desire to alter the person's mind which twists the wizard, and destroy's the other person's mind while Harry just focused on his irritations with Bob and everything going on to push energy into the ingredients to activate them.
As for Peabody. There is a difference between messing with vanilla mortals, and messing with members of the Senior Council. I don't know if he actually broke the laws of magic, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't kill him for messing with the Council. Remember Eb told Harry that some of what he was saying would have gotten him killed by the Council in earlier days. So they don't just kill for violating the laws.
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Warbird on July 10, 2018, 09:52:24 PM ---So I was re-reading Storm Front (for the first time in a long time) and Bob convinces Harry to make a Love Potion. Isn't this by definition a huge violation of the third law, forcible violation of a human mind?
I was confused since Harry didn't really object to making it despite Morgan practically hanging over his shoulder and it being a more clear violation of the White Council's laws.
I could chalk it up to being the first book and not everything being thought out but was wondering if Jim ever chimed in on this.
--- End quote ---
i'd bet since it effects the emotions and physiology over the psyche it's in the same grey area of free will violation that lets Whites be residents here.
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