The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 04, 2018, 03:35:10 AM ---How old are you? As a young boy I could have wild monkey sex any time I wanted but only with myself. If you get older and your body deserts you in small ways and pressure builds up with job and family and you get tired sooner and not enough sleep anyway.
There is a huge market in viagra. If your partner tells you not now it can just mean that she is too stressed, too tired or emotionally empty after a long day at work. You would both like wild monkey sex but it is just not possible.
Now Harry makes that nice potion.
Really, Ill doers are ill deemers.
--- End quote ---
Viagra isn't a drug slipped on you unawares usually.. Let's not forget that Harry gave the love potion to Susan by accident under pressure of the attack.. If the portion is used like Viagra merely to enhance or to make sex possible voluntarily, that is one thing... But if it is slipped to someone to have sex when that person doesn't want it by breaking down their will, that is rape.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 04, 2018, 03:35:10 AM ---How old are you? As a young boy I could have wild monkey sex any time I wanted but only with myself. If you get older and your body deserts you in small ways and pressure builds up with job and family and you get tired sooner and not enough sleep anyway.
There is a huge market in viagra. If your partner tells you not now it can just mean that she is too stressed, too tired or emotionally empty after a long day at work. You would both like wild monkey sex but it is just not possible.
Now Harry makes that nice potion.
Really, Ill doers are ill deemers.
--- End quote ---
I'm old enough. Oddly enough Wikipedia has an entry on the topic. Go figure. And for the record I don't think Viagra works like a lust potion. Here are Harry's thoughts from Storm Front.
--- Quote from: Harry from Storm Front ---No. That would be too much. That would be like admitting I couldn't get a woman to like me on my own, and it would be unfair, taking advantage of the woman.
--- End quote ---
That doesn't sound like consent. Just for the record, I would die to have wild monkey sex one more time. And given the state of my pump that statement might be prophetic.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 04, 2018, 11:25:02 AM ---I'm old enough. Oddly enough Wikipedia has an entry on the topic. Go figure. And for the record I don't think Viagra works like a lust potion.
--- End quote ---
No it does not but it targets similar people. There is even more market for something better.
--- Quote ---Here are Harry's thoughts from Storm Front.That doesn't sound like consent.
--- End quote ---
It was an accident which underlines again that the problem is not the potion itself but how it is used.
--- Quote ---Just for the record, I would die to have wild monkey sex one more time. And given the state of my pump that statement might be prophetic.
--- End quote ---
It needs instructions for use.
You are not alone,
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on August 04, 2018, 03:26:06 AM ---Straw man.. Watsonian- Molly did so, intentionally, purposefully. she uses mind magic specifically Doyalist-Was done to show a parallel towards their next action a mental battle to displace the soul.
Even us common folk know the eyes are the gateway to the soul. GS shows us in the DF it is indeed through the mind one must attack the soul. Molly cast no counterspell to stop some hidden necromancy, she fought it with her Will through constructed defenses.
--- End quote ---
What strawman? Please keep your arguments based on the facts and keep that kind of attack out of this.
Yes, Molly did that. GS does not show us that one "must" attack the soul through the mind. It shows us someone trying to steal a body (who is explicitly kicking the other soul out), and someone defending by using a soulgaze.
It does not establish that this is the one and only way that anyone who wants to do anything to a soul has to go through the mind. Mort doesn't do any mind magic, but he manipulates souls (as seen when he puts Butters back in his body).
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on August 04, 2018, 08:10:53 AM ---As far as what info the books gave us, entering by itself pose no harm. Rewiring things inside is the problem.
--- End quote ---
In Turn Coat, Harry tells Molly that just looking into Luccio's head is a violation. Because it is an invasion, same as if you're getting into a tree to watch someone getting undressed.
--- Quote ---in book 13, Harry mentioned that he and Molly practiced entering each other's mind. Nothing bad came out of it.
--- End quote ---
Yes. After the White Council specifically made allowances for that practices, which they hadn't before because it was a law violation. Corpsetaker even says as much in Dead Beat, that Council mind defenses are weak because they are too afraid of breaking the law to practice.
--- Quote ---Entering another's mind without permission seems to be harmless also. Molly did that to Harry in book 10 and to Luccio in book 11. It is however forbidden by the council's laws of magic. But as far as I can see, just entering another mind cause no arcane damage. It might cause psychological damage, but not arcane damage.
--- End quote ---
Morgan tried to shoot Molly for it, and Harry outright says that it's a law violation what she did, and therefore the Wardens will want to kill her for it.
It might well be that "just" looking causes less damage, but it is still an invasion of one's privacy.
Influencing another's mind is trickier. Influencing is one step closer to rewiring, but the books gave us examples where such influencing is either accepted practiced or tacidly allowed.By the White Council, yes. Who, again, are not necessarily on the money when it comes to the laws and how they work in a cosmic sense.
--- Quote ---Spells of suggestions are the most common examples. Even Harry uses it to ward his temporary hideout in book 11 and Morgan himself accepted the use of such spells. Veils also influenced people's mind" "Nothing going on here", "Just a background" and so on. Suggestion, distraction, seduction, temptation are all influencing minds, and to a certain extent such things are sort of allowed.
--- End quote ---
They're influencing the mind in the way that camoflage would -- they're not going in and either looking at or rewriting things; they're just making suggestions. The mind is not changed; the memories are intact, and the spellcaster does not gain knowledge.
--- Quote ---Which is why I can accept love potions as legal in the eyes of the 7 laws. Apparently influencing another's mind is considered all right to a certain extent.
--- End quote ---
The love potion that Harry brews has no mind-changing component; it lowers inhibitions the way alcohol does, but it doesn't go in and say, "Love this person."
--- Quote ---It is all depends on how the wizard achieve his or her goals. Illusion magic that directly input images into another's mind is illegal, but use hollomancy and similar results are considered legal. Hypnotizing a woman to be a seks slave is a big no no, but magic or potions that cause sexual overdrive on the physical body or cause addiction could make a woman into a seks slave just the same and I think the council's 7 laws does not cover that.
Same with the first law. Burning someone with fire magic is a capital crime, but immobilize someone with air magic and than shoot them dead with a gun is legal.
--- End quote ---
Yep. The laws are fiddly like that.
--- Quote ---What's the point for the 7 laws then?
The point is damage control. Practically speaking, it is not that the council does not want to include the concept of justice in it's laws, but I think they simply does not has the strength to enforce such a law.
It is said that there is about 5000 wizards in the world. Practically 5000 super humans.
You simply cannot constrain such a power. If you restrict wizards too much, they'll rebel. There'll be a war.
Merlin's 7 laws of magic is about the most the wizard community could tolerate, and I strongly suspect wizardkind initially accepted such a rule because Merlin is simply too powerful to defy openly at the time.
--- End quote ---
Yup, this exactly. As Luccio says, the laws aren't about right and wrong; to an extent, the first four are about maintaining free will. The last three are wrong in the, "This is cosmically a bad idea" sense, if not a moral sense.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 04, 2018, 06:23:55 PM ---In Turn Coat, Harry tells Molly that just looking into Luccio's head is a violation. Because it is an invasion, same as if you're getting into a tree to watch someone getting undressed.
--- End quote ---
Because Molly had no invitation. Though to be sure about that you have to ask Luccio who is somewhat less strict in these things than Morgan or Harry as her behaviour in small favor showed when she did not protest when Molly looked in Harry's mind.
--- Quote ---Yes. After the White Council specifically made allowances for that practices, which they hadn't before because it was a law violation. Corpsetaker even says as much in Dead Beat, that Council mind defenses are weak because they are too afraid of breaking the law to practice.
--- End quote ---
I doubt the white council can change the laws that easily.
--- Quote ---Morgan tried to shoot Molly for it, and Harry outright says that it's a law violation what she did, and therefore the Wardens will want to kill her for it.
--- End quote ---
Morgan and bunny warlocks. I don't take his word as the last word on it. He wanted to kill Harry for Sue as well and Lucio clearly thought otherwise.
--- Quote ---It might well be that "just" looking causes less damage, but it is still an invasion of one's privacy.
--- End quote ---
An invasion is only an invasion if there is no invitation. Otherwise why use the word invasion at all? That only makes sense if there is a non invading way to get in.
--- Quote ---Influencing another's mind is trickier. Influencing is one step closer to rewiring, but the books gave us examples where such influencing is either accepted practiced or tacidly allowed.By the White Council, yes. Who, again, are not necessarily on the money when it comes to the laws and how they work in a cosmic sense.
They're influencing the mind in the way that camoflage would -- they're not going in and either looking at or rewriting things; they're just making suggestions. The mind is not changed; the memories are intact, and the spellcaster does not gain knowledge.
The love potion that Harry brews has no mind-changing component; it lowers inhibitions the way alcohol does, but it doesn't go in and say, "Love this person."
Yep. The laws are fiddly like that.
Yup, this exactly. As Luccio says, the laws aren't about right and wrong; to an extent, the first four are about maintaining free will. The last three are wrong in the, "This is cosmically a bad idea" sense, if not a moral sense.
--- End quote ---
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