The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Molly and the guy in black

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Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on July 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM ---Nope, I supposed whatever boost they did get was not as much as the WK, I did that, did you read it?
--- End quote ---
I did, in fact. I also answered why I thought the idea did not make logical sense to me.

In short, the Winter Knight is a mortal gifted with a small portion of the power that the Winter Queens, including the Ladies, have full access to. Ergo, it does not make any sense to me -- based on what's been seen and stated in the books and stories -- that the Ladies would be less powerful than the Knight.


--- Quote ---I also directly said in the Files, to point out my lack of knowledge on cold case, not having really read it. Not that it matters, cause I then posited the boost was not greater than the WK's, and that WK incorporated knew this? Clearly that is one point you will just repetitively ignore because it directly through in book context, negates your little debate over nothing...
--- End quote ---
What, exactly, is "WK incorporated"? To my knowledge that is not a term from the books, but you've twice referred to it as if it's an authoritative source.


--- Quote ---I could also proceed to point out how, specifically, as the Knight is a part of the queen they are vulnerable to the knight himself but you'll still argue .
--- End quote ---
"Vulnerable to" is not the same as "weaker than."

Maeve was vulnerable to Murphy's headshot. Does that mean that Murphy could overpower Maeve? No.

Harry is vulnerable to iron wielded by pixies. Does that mean the pixies can overpower him? No.

Are the Queens vulnerable to the Winter Knight? Apparently so. Does that mean he can take one of them on in a direct test of strength? No.

Based on the power displayed by the Ladies and the Queens in the books, I can only conclude that Harry would lose any such direct confrontation.


--- Quote ---make no mistake, I refuse to reply to your silly one upmanship because you've proven repetitively that's all you want.
--- End quote ---
Nope. I'm simply stating a case. Pointing out the implications of the things you've stated is not "silly one upmanship." I have no interest in "on upmanship." I am interested in making my points clear.


--- Quote ---Even you rebuttal to Maeve's ploy.. it's what she did you thinking its stupid is less than negligible
--- End quote ---
It appears you misunderstood my point. Let me restate it, for clarity's sake:


--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 10, 2018, 05:34:28 PM ---You don't induce an enemy to want to rape and murder you, then literally latch onto him, if you have any inkling that he's actually going to be able to do so.

--- End quote ---
The bolded bit is the important point. Maeve drawing Harry in -- while he is armed and obviously intends to do her violence -- is an indication that Maeve has confidence that she can and will be able to stop Harry from whatever it is he or the Mantle wants to do.

I think Maeve -- who has been Winter Lady and worked with dozens if not hundreds of Winter Knights over the course of 1000 years (and who has probably killed more than a few of them personally) -- has a better idea of the relative capabilities of the Lady and Knight mantles than Harry -- who, at that point, had been on the job less than 24 hours and still needs other people to explain his own limitations to him.


--- Quote ---especially sense the scene itself proved the WK impulse is not to kill the Lady but to rape her... now proceed with the previous status quoi and ignore me while I add you to this ignore list too.
--- End quote ---
I'd have to check my copy of the book to be certain (I only have PDFs up through Ghost Story), but I'm reasonably sure Harry's inner monologue when he gives in to the Winter Knight mantle includes desires to kill Maeve.

But back to the issue at hand, I think it's evident that neither Harry nor Molly want or would want to go that route at this point in the books.

Dresden has, to my recollection, never stated that he wants to pursue romance with Molly -- his current romantic aims being directed instead at Murphy -- so until he does, his previous, repeated and very firm denials of the prospect stand.

Molly now knows that any attempt to have sex with a man will result in her being put in a state of blind, black-out fury as the Mantle seeks to at the very least maim the object of her affections. Molly obviously does not want to subject a man she loves, admires and respects to the fury of the nigh-godly mantle -- she was already devastated when it happened to Ramirez.

Further, even if she could be fully overpowered and restrained such that she could not harm her prospective partner, it would still destroy the mantle. The mantle is one of the pillars of the mortal world and represents a job that Molly said is important and worth doing, so she obviously wouldn't want it destroyed.

To dip into speculation here, we have no idea what would happen to Molly if the mantle is destroyed while she's holding it, but I doubt the destruction of such an old, powerful and important mantle would be harmless to its wielder.

Finally, even if the Winter Knight has some kind of loophole that would prevent the Mantle's destruction, Molly would spend the act blacked out and completely without control, meaning she couldn't even remember or enjoy it, even if we put aside the question of ongoing consent.

So from Harry's perspective, he is simply not interested. From Molly's perspective, getting busy with Harry presents huge risks to herself, her partner and the fabric of reality, with no real benefit to her even if those risks don't manifest -- and, as Kindler points out, she doesn't seem to be too interested in the prospect at this point either.

Therefore, I respectfully posit that -- until proven otherwise by the text of the books -- Harry dipping his blasting rod into Molly's winter wellspring is not in the cards.

Wizard Sibelis:

--- Quote ---Therefore, I respectfully posit that -- until proven otherwise by the text of the books -- Harry dipping his blasting rod into Molly's winter wellspring is not in the cards
--- End quote ---
and I suppose when it comes to pass they mate and produce a new formation, destroying the old is just change after all, and thus makes the new 'Queen', cause ya know, the Ladies job is to become queen, not just change up mantles, that's just a passover....  i'll be maniacally laughing at how much you've said you hate when such theories come to pass... and yes, I will respectfully remind you of it til the end of time..
--- Quote ---Nope, I supposed whatever boost they did get was not as much as the WK, I did that, did you read it?
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---I did, in fact. I also answered
--- End quote ---
and if you could kindly point to where you directly replied to that point instead of substituting it with you own tangent i'd love that... cause I never actually said that, I said that I said that, and you proved your not really paying attention still ;p

*but, just cause I feel like going into my own tangent on this theory, the actual ability to mate added to an act of love(cause i'd really like to see fae try an co-op that shit without it screwing them *cough* Lea *cough*) and the fact mutual love plus vigorous sex is proven to be the equal to true love protection, added to that the little blurb on love and escaping the WK to begin with, and indeed Mab's Big clue bat that Thomas being able to love was what made him mortal enough for her... and the primal act of creation that is actually going to do the deed, is probably protected from even the mantles ability to influence.. ya, know, since love is one of those powers that promote free will and all... And it's likely that's the way it was set up to work to begin with for the winter court.

Carl:
Hey i'm back after a couple of year absence, (didn't mean for it to be that long, real life, and not wanting to be around till i'd had chance to catch up on the short stories stretched out way too long, just read Brief Cases), and sorry but having finished Cold Days a few hours ago Harry isn't even close to in the same league as Molly now. She's so far out of his power level that there isn't any way to really put the difference into perspective in a way most people can really comprehend in the sense of "i can image those things". Harry's somwhere up around a decent sized airstrike in terms of magic output, Molly, (and she draws on the same source for her enhanced strength as she does her magic), is a walking WMD.

Though it's also clear from cold days she is constrained by her ability to handle the mental processing effort for anything super complex. Punching things really hard isn't complex.

raidem:

--- Quote ---I think Maeve -- who has been Winter Lady and worked with dozens if not hundreds of Winter Knights over the course of 1000 years (and who has probably killed more than a few of them personally) -- has a better idea of the relative capabilities of the Lady and Knight mantles than Harry -- who, at that point, had been on the job less than 24 hours and still needs other people to explain his own limitations to him.
--- End quote ---

Maeve is older than 150 years old but younger than a birth, or rather an early adulthood of some Austrian composer.  So, a father that probably had a child no earlier than 1750.  This would make Maeve no older than approximately 250 years old.  Therefore, she is in no event 1000 years old.


As to the OP and title of the thread, I do believe Molly and IdHarry are conspiring. That IdHarry has told Molly things; she may be operating to effect some plan, circumstance.  I do believe IdHarry to be some sort of link to an alternate reality/future Harry.  I like to believe Molly and IdHarry plans may be in part targeted at Murphy and Mab.  Molly was pretty considerate/grinning when Harry went in to spend time with Murphy at the end of Skin Game.  Molly also was eager to confront Mab at the end of Skin Game too.  It would be nice to have a Tam Lin plot whereby a love story plot is the means to which one frees someone from a mantle.  And that love story plot is side issue within a greater story.

wardenferry419:
Maybe, if Harry can find a way to have sex with Molly; then, he will escape the WK role. But, it would require moving Molly up in roles as a sacrifice.

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