The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Molly and the guy in black

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Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on July 10, 2018, 04:47:22 PM ---Your opinion is not a deciding factor in a verse where that's the norm between master and apprentice opposites
--- End quote ---
The "norm"? No. It's mentioned that it has happened, not that it's the "norm."

And "so, ew" is also Harry's opinion, based on ... him giving his opinion about it.


--- Quote ---Mmm, and yet the lack of more than physical damage would mean the other side of the coin has less evidence in and of itself making the idea more valid anyway.

--- End quote ---
The Mantle was defending its own existence. Mab is very clear that the Mantle would be destroyed if Molly sleeps with a man. The Mantle has access to Winter's Wellspring, power that Molly was shown in that story to use -- almost casually -- to wipe out an entire room full of empowered enemies and kick the door in so hard it nearly exploded.

But yeah, let's say "extra grace/speed" so you can keep arguing that the Winter Knight -- who, again, has a portion of the power that the Winter Queens have access to -- can just overpower her. It's not like one of the elemental forces of nature is going to actually use any of its real power to defend its own existence.

Creatures of all sorts get more dangerous when they're defending their existence. You're positing that the Mantle of the Winter Lady would pull its punches and demonstrate a lot less power in defense of its existence than Molly has access to do when she's casually showing off. That supposition makes no sense.


--- Quote ---You do know what we're debating here?
--- End quote ---
Yes -- in this particular sentence, whether the Winter Knight can overpower the Winter Lady, and more specifically, what the Winter Lady mantle confers on its wielder. You posited that it was just a boost in speed and grace, and the text of the story proves that supposition wrong.


--- Quote ---Her ploy was simply to separate the desires of the WK from Harry, which worked perfectly.
--- End quote ---
By drawing him in close and ratcheting up the "Rape and kill Maeve" impulse.

You don't induce an enemy to want to rape and murder you, then literally latch onto him, if you have any inkling that he's actually going to be able to do so.


--- Quote ---and if she's trying to eat your face and kill you... this is a moot point, she's not the mantle, an if Harry knows her angst at all when it happens, then, like has happened before already, he'll follow the will of the person not the parasite trying to control them. *sigh* this is such a moot point I feel you just try to be contrary, at least argue because you believe it, not cause you wanna have one right...
--- End quote ---
So, Harry's just going to ignore the obviously impaired mindset of his prospective romantic partner to force sex on her despite her literally, physically fighting him back in defense of herself ... why again? Is Harry just doing this to get his rocks off, without caring about how Molly feels, or even if she's consciously experiencing it?

Molly completely blacked out when the Mantle was defending itself. I.e., she's not conscious or aware of what's happening when it takes over.

Are you really, seriously suggesting here that Harry should physically restrain someone who's not aware of what's happening so he can fuck her?

Because it sure as hell sounds like that.


--- Quote ---Na it will be ok, He'll be able to give Molly her true desire by leu of th WK being able to physically take the WL...
--- End quote ---
Nothing in the books suggests this is possible. Mab speaks clearly -- sleeping with any Man will destroy the mantle. She does not make an exception for the Winter Knight in her statement.


--- Quote ---which coincidently look at Maeve and Slates relationship.. Slates particular disposition after he's been on the job awhile... and ask yourself what motives Maeve had when choosing said Knight?
--- End quote ---
I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here. Maeve picked an asshole to be her Knight. So what? There's never any indication that they had a sexual relationship.


--- Quote ---It's in his syle of clothes, the way they present themselves as a duo in Sk, ect. they're 'fond' of each other in that crazy fae way.
--- End quote ---
What. Maeve has to have Slate physically restrained because he is about to take a swing at her. And then she kicks him so hard she dislocates his shoulder. Slate, in turn says he's working with Aurora so that when he gets the Summer Knight power, he can take revenge on Maeve.

They both make it pretty clear that they hate each other and want to do one another harm.

"Fond" is not a word that describes them.


--- Quote ---( :o I just realized without starborn they're sterile, cause they cant' 'change' otherwise... sweet, this disposition worked out in my favor)

--- End quote ---
Again, what? Where are you getting any of this from?

Wizard Sibelis:
Ekk Gads but my star and garters fricken hurt here...

--- Quote ---Yes -- in this particular sentence, whether the Winter Knight can overpower the Winter Lady, and more specifically, what the Winter Lady mantle confers on its wielder. You posited that it was just a boost in speed and grace, and the text of the story proves that supposition wrong.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed.
--- End quote ---
regardless of anything else to be added, anywhere, ever.... you plain just don't listen to what I actually am talking about do you? None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better, and then we have WK incorporated knowing he can take her? I'm done, an that's^^ precisely why. Anything you come back for that with is just plain going to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
*and if I had my copy of PG handy i'd readily prove that's not the same wording as 'it happens', It's a preferred arrangement by his own accounting. If you can remember his own ew i'm sure you cant just selectively forget that part because it disagrees, no?

morriswalters:
Consider for a moment what JB has done to date. Were I a woman in Harry's life I would buy life insurance and wear body armor, he's bad ju ju for the women in his circle.   The count is three Ladies, ,one girlfriend and one fallen angel(or a shadow copy anyway).   And the mothers of his children should be very afraid.  He's two and oh on that score.  And that is not to mention Murphy being used a a punching bag or Anastasia Luccio being mind controlled and subjected to a body swap.  Oh yeah, and getting his apprentice a mantle she didn't want.

I personally think that Murphy should get her affairs in order and that Harry cheating on her with Molly should be the least of her worries.  Whatever Molly once was she is now subject to control by the Queen, and she is keeping secrets.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on July 10, 2018, 07:27:20 PM ---Ekk Gads but my star and garters fricken hurt here...regardless of anything else to be added, anywhere, ever.... you plain just don't listen to what I actually am talking about do you? None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better, and then we have WK incorporated knowing he can take her? I'm done, an that's^^ precisely why. Anything you come back for that with is just plain going to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
*and if I had my copy of PG handy i'd readily prove that's not the same wording as 'it happens', It's a preferred arrangement by his own accounting. If you can remember his own ew i'm sure you cant just selectively forget that part because it disagrees, no?

--- End quote ---
Well, no, I read everything you wrote. One minor mistake on my part does not dismiss all the other arguments that you're not addressing. You don't get to decide what I am doing when I post, or why.

You were egregiously underselling the capabilities of the Winter Ladies and their mantles. So, I was pointing out the abilities we've seen Maeve and Molly exhibit during the books.

You argued that the only physical boost they got was to grace and speed, despite us seeing in the books that Maeve dislocated Slate's shoulder with a light kick, and Molly physically kicking down a pair of gigantic wooden doors to the point they nearly exploded -- both clearly feats of strength well beyond what their normal muscular and frames would have accounted for.

Ergo, your supposition that grace and speed is the only physical buff is clearly wrong.

You also argued that the only defense it would demonstrate to defend itself was physical, when that simply makes no sense. Why would a mantle defending its very existence hold back from using all the power at its disposal if it was under real, ongoing threat?

Egro, given what we've seen of the Winter Ladies, that the Winter Knight could so simply overpower them is just plain not a tenable suggestion.

You further argued that the Winter Knight has some kind of loophole that would bypass the Lady Mantle's rule against sleeping with any men. There is simply nothing in the books that states or suggests such a thing, and Mab's language was clear that she cannot sleep with any man.

I can't say why you're arguing this, but on the balance of the evidence, it certainly appears that you are heavily invested in Harry being able to stick his "blasting rod" into Molly, to the exclusion of other considerations.

And then there's the final point you didn't see fit to address: That, in your supposition, Harry would restrain, overpower and force sex on Molly while she is in the grips of the Mantle's automatic defense.

When in that state, she has no memory of her actions and no control over what she's doing; therefore, she cannot give consent.

Again, does that not seem wrong to you?

Arjan:
Ah well they can not give consent anyway because they have no free will ;D

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