The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
WAG.... Murphy has moved on
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: forumghost on June 19, 2018, 08:00:40 PM ---I mean yeah, but I see why someone could read it that way. It's very much a blanket "fuck those guys" kind of statement- she's saying that she doesn't have it in her to even try and turn them around (not that I can blame her, I'd do the same).
Which is imo quite in keeping with Karrin's character. She doesn't save badguys from themselves, she stops them. Like I always put it: there's a reason that Harry saw her as an avenging angel and not a guardian angel.
--- End quote ---
Here's the thing, though.
Murphy in the same conversation says she is holding onto the Swords and will pass them on to people who are willing to do that. So she explicitly acknowledges that someone should be willing to offer them redemption. She, personally, is just not the one to do it.
So there is a very important difference between, "They don't deserve redemption," and "I don't want to offer them redemption, so I will give the Sword to someone who does."
She's saying pretty clearly, "I don't want to do this," not "Nobody should do this" or "They don't deserve the chance."
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 19, 2018, 03:45:29 PM ---All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...
--- End quote ---
Mira. Your argument is disjointed.
There are 2 different issues presented here.
If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.
The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.
It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.
If Nick truly cannot kill Harry, Harry does not need to be so hesitant. He can just bring Butters to the carpenters home and then taunt Nicodemous: "You can't kill me!!!!" when he get surrounded by Nick and the Genoskwa. If there truly no danger, and there is truly no price need to be paid, why so much hassle? Unless Harry is an idiot and simply does not understand the rules.
It does not change the fact that Murphy proven herself to be unsuited for KoTC duty however. No matter how nescesary her choice is, When push came to shove, Murphy sacrifice fid for Harry's safety. It is kind of sacrificing public interest for personal interest. It is almost like Harry's attitude to let the world burn as long as he can save little Maggi. For a KoTC, such an attitude is not acceptable.
This does not however means that her actions and choices has no value. Murphy did save Harry by wielding fid, even if it cause the holy sword to be broken.
Again, mixing up the 2 issues is misleading. Murphy fail as a Knight, but she definitely does not fail as a person and as a woman.
Mira:
--- Quote ---After removing the Coin Nicodemus ordered the execution of the man she loves. I'd hardly say that she believes they deserve execution if they are actually seeking redemption, which Nicodemus was clearly not doing. Murphy is not a blood thirsty monster. If Nic's surrender hand been genuine, she'd have accepted it. She only raised the Sword to kill him after he ordered the murder of her friend. Nicodemus was protected because he removed the Coin, but he was not innocent, nor was he seeking redemption.
--- End quote ---
Whether or not it was sincere isn't the point, Cassius's surrender wasn't sincere either, yet Michael and Sanya had to accept it, those are the rules, it isn't their place to judge... Didn't say Murphy was a blood thirsty monster, however she is a cop, seen a lot of bad people in her day and has an opinion of what should happen to them, she judged Nic and decided his sentence. That was her fuck up, regardless of her motives..
--- Quote ---If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.
The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.
--- End quote ---
Yes, they can, because the rules are for the Sword, why they were made, doesn't matter if she was a Knight at the time or not.. She broke the rule that governs the Sword... As to saving Harry's life, it was a ploy on Nic's part to get Murphy to attack then he skillfully pissed her off enough to try and execute him with the Sword after he surrendered.. If Harry's death was what he really wanted, his skull could have been crushed in a nano second, before Murphy even got the Sword pulled out.. Or after Nic succeeded in goading her to break the Sword, he could have singled Gen to crush Harry's skull... So no, her bringing the Sword along only put the Sword in danger, regardless of her motives...
--- Quote ---It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.
--- End quote ---
Neither here nor there, given her feelings about the rules governing the Holy Swords, and she is very eloquent on that point to Harry knowing full well that breaking those rules could break one, she shouldn't have brought it. She could have been just as effective with her gun, expert marksmen that she is and quick too... Talk about saving Harry's life, she could have put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle, more effective in saving Harry than attacking Nic with a Sword.. Nic the button pusher was effective in doing it on all levels, he played everyone like a harp on that day... Only factor he didn't count on was Michael stepping up and Uriel putting his Grace on the line, that is what saved the day...
Arjan:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 20, 2018, 01:19:05 AM ---Mira. Your argument is disjointed.
There are 2 different issues presented here.
If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.
The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.
It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.
--- End quote ---
Basically a true knight would have failed here.
--- Quote ---If Nick truly cannot kill Harry, Harry does not need to be so hesitant. He can just bring Butters to the carpenters home and then taunt Nicodemous: "You can't kill me!!!!" when he get surrounded by Nick and the Genoskwa. If there truly no danger, and there is truly no price need to be paid, why so much hassle? Unless Harry is an idiot and simply does not understand the rules.
--- End quote ---
Of course that is exactly what Nicodemus wants you to believe. It would make Harry less effective and increase Murphy’s suffering.
--- Quote ---
It does not change the fact that Murphy proven herself to be unsuited for KoTC duty however. No matter how nescesary her choice is, When push came to shove, Murphy sacrifice fid for Harry's safety. It is kind of sacrificing public interest for personal interest. It is almost like Harry's attitude to let the world burn as long as he can save little Maggi. For a KoTC, such an attitude is not acceptable.
--- End quote ---
Except being a human in this case was more important than being a knight. It is not that Karen let the whole world burn. In the end breaking find was repairable.
Most people would have failed as a knight, some people would have failed as a human being. Some of them would have given up the sword immediately afterwards because the sword is not just something wonderful, it is also a burden that sometimes unrealistic demands. Sacrifice is part of it and that includes self sacrifice.
--- Quote ---This does not however means that her actions and choices has no value. Murphy did save Harry by wielding fid, even if it cause the holy sword to be broken.
Again, mixing up the 2 issues is misleading. Murphy fail as a Knight, but she definitely does not fail as a person and as a woman.
--- End quote ---
And then you have to ask yourself what is more important. Failing as a knight or failing as a human being by not even trying?
groinkick:
Actually this brings up an interesting question. Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen?
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