Author Topic: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ  (Read 8892 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« on: April 08, 2018, 01:34:57 AM »
Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before.

I know in regards to Jim saying (controversially) trust nothing he says, which is sound advice, he is also winding us up a bit. He loves playing games. And yes he spreads some misinformation, but we will work that out over time.

This however is "new" info, off the cuff. Psychologically speaking, it probably is true.

See attachment for evidence.

I am going to post more WOJ as I find it, but I think in general there is a lot to be found.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2018, 03:04:27 AM »
That's not too surprising.  If an alternate timeline is a parallel universe, and it falls to the Outsiders, who could possibly traverse timelines like others apparently can, then one successful invasion would jeopardize all universes.  We don't know how many splinterverses there are, but even if there's only a handful, sacrificing one for the rest is a (distasteful but) acceptable loss.  Like gangrenous limbs removed to save the rest of the body.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2018, 04:36:07 AM »
LOL Well I guess any debate about TWG's power, or Archangel's power being comparable to the Mothers just went away.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2018, 04:47:17 AM »
Yes it fits in well with his job description - and you are right about the utilitarian approach. Even though they believe EVERY SINGLE SOUL/EVERY SINGLE CHOICE IS IMPORTANT, some realities have to be pruned.
 
But I wonder how Dresden would fell about uncountable lives being extinguished. He doesn't see eye to eye with Heaven on a lot of things.
I find myself wondering what the other Archangels, and other angels do as well.

If Lucifer spends the majority of his time lying and compromising choice and Free Will - which all angels have to SOME degree - but not the same as mortals, what does Michael do?

Because it seems like Uriel does most of the counter moves. And Raphael, from a reader perspective is the most mysterious. The Healer doesn't seem to be very active at all. Gabriel used to be very in contact with humanity, what happened? What do all the other angels, apart from Cherubs and Angels of Deaths do? Guards, messengers, warriors are the norm. And Fallen must have a bit to do as well.

Have the other Archangels destroyed realities? This fits in with the line from Uriel "I was fighting wars before your planet existed" (to paraphrase). I love getting into the broad cosmology of things.

And tbh I never really agreed with The Mothers being at the same level as Archangels. I think that has been retconned. However, perhaps not because as Jim says - the beings do NOT change, only our understanding of who and what they are. And maybe the Archangels and the Mothers represent something beyond our myths, something Jim has created for the purposes of his narrative.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 04:48:18 AM »
LOL Well I guess any debate about TWG's power, or Archangel's power being comparable to the Mothers just went away.
They're equal in their way.  If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them.  If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it.  The victim is dead either way.

Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in.  Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe.  Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2018, 04:54:09 AM »
They're equal in their way.  If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them.  If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it.  The victim is dead either way.

Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in.  Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe.  Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.

Mantles bind you.  The Mothers might not be able to let the Outsiders in anymore than Mab can tell a lie.  Also WoJ (i know, grain of salt) said the Outsiders were locked out by God, and they are only allowed it because God gave mortals the ability to decide what they do with their sand box.  So yeah it sounds like TWG, could stop the Outsiders if He so chooses.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 04:56:03 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 05:15:52 AM »
Yes it fits in well with his job description - and you are right about the utilitarian approach. Even though they believe EVERY SINGLE SOUL/EVERY SINGLE CHOICE IS IMPORTANT, some realities have to be pruned.
 
But I wonder how Dresden would fell about uncountable lives being extinguished. He doesn't see eye to eye with Heaven on a lot of things.
I find myself wondering what the other Archangels, and other angels do as well.

If Lucifer spends the majority of his time lying and compromising choice and Free Will - which all angels have to SOME degree - but not the same as mortals, what does Michael do?

Because it seems like Uriel does most of the counter moves. And Raphael, from a reader perspective is the most mysterious. The Healer doesn't seem to be very active at all. Gabriel used to be very in contact with humanity, what happened? What do all the other angels, apart from Cherubs and Angels of Deaths do? Guards, messengers, warriors are the norm. And Fallen must have a bit to do as well.

Have the other Archangels destroyed realities? This fits in with the line from Uriel "I was fighting wars before your planet existed" (to paraphrase). I love getting into the broad cosmology of things.

And tbh I never really agreed with The Mothers being at the same level as Archangels. I think that has been retconned. However, perhaps not because as Jim says - the beings do NOT change, only our understanding of who and what they are. And maybe the Archangels and the Mothers represent something beyond our myths, something Jim has created for the purposes of his narrative.
Just because Uri was named as a universe destroyer doesn't mean the others haven't either.

There's numerous theories about the others, though. 

1) The Arches could transcend realities (one consciousness for all, rather than one in each) and therefore have to split (non-linear) time between them.  Harry's universe could be largely overseen by Uriel, while the others are overseeing mirrorverses, but they pop into Harry's when needed.

2) There's a theory that each SotC is backed/sponsored by an Arch.  My guess would be Uri/Fidel, Mich/Esper, and Gabe/Amor, but it doesn't matter too much.  That leaves Raph (don't get me started on what he's doing) and Luci without sponsorships.

3) Based on Mab's comments in Small Favor, we can guess at what the others are up to, in parallel ways to how Uriel works.  He recruits agents and spies (ironic that he's the Light, but he works in the shadows?).  Michael would recruit warriors to ride into battle (he's recruited at least one, in Sanya).  Gabriel would probably back the church, singing the praise of TWG and spreading the word (he's the Strength, the church is the Rock..  parallels?).  Raphael would handle... Let's just say "incarceration" for now.   ;)

As for Harry's thoughts... I imagine he'd take the politic route for once.  But him finding out about that kind of thing, and throwing Uri's criticism of "roasting marshmallows" in his face, might be interesting.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 05:20:54 AM »
Mantles bind you.  The Mothers might not be able to let the Outsiders in anymore than Mab can tell a lie.  Also WoJ (i know, grain of salt) said the Outsiders were locked out by God, and they are only allowed it because God gave mortals the ability to decide what they do with their sand box.  So yeah it sounds like TWG, could stop the Outsiders if He so chooses.
Hence the "theoretically" qualifier.

But mantles aren't the only thing that bind beings.  A Divine Word/Promise is likely more binding than mantles.  For TWG to take a hand in keeping the Outsiders out, to the degree that He's revoking free will in any way, could be going back on His Word, and possibly losing the argument with Luci. 

Offline Zohak

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 06:58:21 AM »
Mother Winter has a little cloth for that.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 07:13:40 AM »
3) Based on Mab's comments in Small Favor, we can guess at what the others are up to, in parallel ways to how Uriel works.  He recruits agents and spies (ironic that he's the Light, but he works in the shadows?).  Michael would recruit warriors to ride into battle (he's recruited at least one, in Sanya).  Gabriel would probably back the church, singing the praise of TWG and spreading the word (he's the Strength, the church is the Rock..  parallels?).  Raphael would handle... Let's just say "incarceration" for now.   ;)
I imagine one of them would be in charge of a big job we don't see much of: keeping watch of the gates of Hell. I can't imagine Lucy is staying there just because he likes it (and indeed, he cheated to get out), but he still mostly stays put. Seems a nice job for Raphael or Michael.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »
I imagine one of them would be in charge of a big job we don't see much of: keeping watch of the gates of Hell. I can't imagine Lucy is staying there just because he likes it (and indeed, he cheated to get out), but he still mostly stays put. Seems a nice job for Raphael or Michael.
Seems more like the domain of Raph.  A warrior and his host aren't necessarily ideal for prison warden and guards.  Whereas the Arch tasked with, you know, imprisoning Azazel in an earthly tomb, would be a better fit. (There, that's as close as I'll get to saying it here)

Offline peregrine

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 12:27:29 PM »
They're equal in their way.  If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them.  If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it.  The victim is dead either way.

Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in.  Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe.  Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.
The fact that I can drive a car down the road with several hundred pounds of stuff at 60 miles per hour does not mean that I can carry several hundred pounds of stuff down the road at 60 miles per hour.  Having the ability to let someone else do a thing does not mean you yourself have the ability to do that thing.

Also, what's with the sudden screenshotting of WoJ?  Can we not provide links to the original source?  Because I can fake a screenshot of WoJ that says whatever I want with no problem whatsoever.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2018, 01:46:06 PM »
Also, what's with the sudden screenshotting of WoJ?  Can we not provide links to the original source?  Because I can fake a screenshot of WoJ that says whatever I want with no problem whatsoever.

They might be from a private facebook group that non-members can't see even with the link.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 01:46:56 PM »
That's not too surprising.  If an alternate timeline is a parallel universe, and it falls to the Outsiders, who could possibly traverse timelines like others apparently can, then one successful invasion would jeopardize all universes.  We don't know how many splinterverses there are, but even if there's only a handful, sacrificing one for the rest is a (distasteful but) acceptable loss.  Like gangrenous limbs removed to save the rest of the body.

Besides which, having your universe destroyed his way is probably a mercy kill compared to actually experiencing an Outsider invasion first-hand.

Offline raidem

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Re: Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2018, 02:28:14 PM »
Yeah, I don't know the particulars about the sources for the Wii, but they seem consistent with what I'd imagine is the case.  They seem plausible.
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WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html