The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Is Mac God?
WereElephant:
--- Quote from: raidem on April 19, 2018, 05:21:08 PM ---Again, Jim CHOSE to include a nod to Corwin by choosing "Corwin, Nevada" and having it a destination in a traveling trip through the nevernever which Jim has admitted to borrowing from Amber in which Corwin is the main protagonist. So, we already know Corwin's name is in play. Maggie Sr. traveled to Corwin, Nevada. She recorded the travel on the gem given to Harry. The Reds made their wharehouse near Corwin, Nevada.
--- End quote ---
Sounds like a nod to me. He said he borrowed that travel sequence from Amber. Fans of Amber who read Dresden might notice the similarities, and think "Hmm, seems familiar. I wonder if he's read the - hey, this is in Corwin! Haha! He has good taste in books." To me, that sounds like the extent of the homage. No Mac/Corwin connection needed. However, I haven't read Amber, so there could be other similarities I'm missing.
While I disagree with you on the shared universe theory (or shared multiverse, whatever), it's still legitimate speculation. There's been talk of copyright infringement in this thread, but the thing is Mr. Butcher could do it in a way that is infringing or in a way that isn't. Most of this would depend on how he names things. If Mac is ever called Corwin in the series, and his relationship to the universe is described as you specified, that would be infringing. Like if he actually had the character Darth Vader appear as an antagonist, named as such. If Mac is never named as such, however, and his oversight of the universe is merely alluded to, it becomes a non-issue, even if that's exactly what Mr. Butcher had in mind. Look at the Alien in Proven Guilty. It's not really an Alien if you read the text literally, but it's worded in such a way that anyone who knows about Xenomorphs will squee with delight. Or terror. Ultimately, though, copyright is a legal battle over who gets to have money from what idea. The Dresdenverse is focused on the idea of Harry Dresden, not Mac, so I think we're okay.
raidem:
--- Quote ---Sounds like a nod to me. He said he borrowed that travel sequence from Amber. Fans of Amber who read Dresden might notice the similarities, and think "Hmm, seems familiar. I wonder if he's read the - hey, this is in Corwin! Haha! He has good taste in books." To me, that sounds like the extent of the homage. No Mac/Corwin connection needed. However, I haven't read Amber, so there could be other similarities I'm missing.
--- End quote ---
They don't look alike. In AmberMush, not Amber, there exists a Worlds End Bar that could be rather similar to Mac's bar. Both have many Mirrors (portals) and teh World Ends Bar is like a multiversal hubway.
Going with a different line of thinking, Hey, maybe Jim's character in AmberMush is who becomes Mac in Dresdenfiles. Then it isn't Corwin but a character within AmberMush that makes it from Amberverse into Dresdenverse. Jim's character was Bassor. So in this Wag, Mac would be Bassor.
--- Quote ---As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim's character) and Mitre (mine) all over 'em.
--- End quote ---
I agree with the following and it better states where I'm going with things.
--- Quote ---If Mac is never named as such, however, and his oversight of the universe is merely alluded to, it becomes a non-issue, even if that's exactly what Mr. Butcher had in mind. Look at the Alien in Proven Guilty. It's not really an Alien if you read the text literally, but it's worded in such a way that anyone who knows about Xenomorphs will squee with delight. Or terror. Ultimately, though, copyright is a legal battle over who gets to have money from what idea. The Dresdenverse is focused on the idea of Harry Dresden, not Mac, so I think we're okay.
--- End quote ---
peregrine:
--- Quote from: raidem on April 19, 2018, 05:21:08 PM ---And the majority of you or others arguments have been from time periods in which you haven't read the books so the jist of the statement stands with the exception for most recent reading.
--- End quote ---
OR, maybe, and hear me out.
I actually had read the Amber Chronicles long before Jim even started writing the Dresden Files, and there's some other reason I'm arguing with you. Some reason that's not based on my not knowing the Amber series.
But what could that possibly be?
It's basically the difference between the White Court being based off one of the Ways Jim used, and them being literal shapeshifters from another reality entirely. The difference between having a multiverse, and having that multiverse actually being THE spectrum of Order and Chaos (and then later more Order).
And if I'm making things up to make you look bad, and you don't actually mean it that literally, why did you bring up the second Pattern as the origin at all?
raidem:
The argument about reading the Amber series is tangential at this point. I stand by my and others belief that it influenced Jim. I stand by my belief that Jim could incorporate some crossover characters but not named that from Amber as a nod to Zelazny. I have wild ass guesses that have Mac as one of these crossover characters in the form of a copy of Corwin.
Is this some grave sin I have committed?
raidem:
I don't mean it that literally, except that it could be seen as such. That corwin's suggested appearance, or someone like him that did something similar, hints that this multiverse origin may tie into something ofher. I in my wags argue it is, but it is extremely likely we will never get confirmation but only indirect circumstantial evidence like I've said before of having corwin appear in the story. Should that happen then we know that somewhere there is an untouched multiverse from amber. Actually, per woj that in the dresdenverse one could find star wars or Jedi then it follows one can find Amber and the created corwin pattern. So it seems to me that the corwin pattern is likely to already exist within dresdenverse somewhere. My question then is asking if the dresdenverse was derived from it.
And for the record, you weren't the main target of who I was suggesting as not having read amber series. That would be Jonas.
Ooh, how about this instead, Mac is Robert zelazny, or Jim Butcher for that matter. Either fits the same role, they each are creating a multiverse and so are Gods of it. And again, in the case of Jim Butcher, having Mac be one of Jim's playing characters could fit the same role too.
--- Quote ---It's basically the difference between the White Court being based off one of the Ways Jim used, and them being literal shapeshifters from another reality entirely.
--- End quote ---
I didn't say that they were. This was Iago's comment that you are badly interpreting:
--- Quote ---As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim's character) and Mitre (mine) all over 'em.
--- End quote ---
Iago says he sees "shades of Thanlis" all over WCV, that isn't literal shapeshifters.
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