The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
TT Harry in Proven Guilty
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: jonas on March 01, 2018, 08:09:56 PM ---That's not tenable, it shows no direct travel to the NN and Harry in the first room after the staircase(in the prison proper) was still in the mortal realm, in fact Mab was still in the mortal realm when she stayed with him as her power stayed with her.(See SK, Aurora and Elaine's convo on trying to kill Harry)
Always considered trapping them inside reality to be the whole point, it prevents them from manifesting elsewhere but leaves their power/balance inside the mortal realm.
--- End quote ---
The cave ceiling a thousand feet below ground level being full of tree roots that Harry narratively lampshades as being impossible under the conventional rules of nature is a pretty big hint there's something else going on with the cave. The stairwell down below and the barrier to the "minimum security" anteroom both pretty much melted out of previously solid material - that's plenty of opportunity for Alfred opening a gate so skillfully that Harry can't even tell it is a gate (another thing he's lampshaded the real pros being able to do).
I don't really buy that it's in the Nevernever either, though. Your reason that Mab was causing the long winter in Chicago by her presence in the cave taking care of Harry in GS is one solid point. Another is that it doesn't really fit with the surface reflecting onto some super-lethal patch of the NN, and putting supernatural supermax right in the Nevernever doesn't seem all that secure against some ungodly powerful creature of the spirit realm deciding to jailbreak its buddy by brute force either. Mainly, though, what seals it for me is that Harry didn't melt and die shortly after returning to Chicago because of all the cells that had been built on being fed intravenously by the tree roots reverting to ectoplasm.
I'm betting it's some sort of weird pocket dimension that Merlin made. Loosely related to how Bob said Harry could create a demesne within the NN if he wanted to invest sufficient effort, but Merlin's much more advanced technique let him put it in between worlds instead.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on February 17, 2018, 07:09:45 PM ---but what else did he do?
--- End quote ---
All this talk about making Demonreach, and rereading the bits in Cold Days to research the subject, led me to another thought that relates to this. Maybe it's come up before, but I don't recall it, so...
Was the Ladies' attack on Demonreach really the extent of the temporal attack? They just used time dilation to make their spell hit at multiple times?
It feels like the whole "throwing the rock" analogy was wasted on what ended up being an attack that took place immediately before the explosion.
There were three barges set to attack, and the attack from the Ladies, for a total of four.
But what if there was a fifth? What if Maeve also attacked during Proven Guilty, sending energy forward to land simultaneously with her planned future attack?
It'd fit the thrown stone analogy, it'd give Harry something to do while there, it'd link the two times we saw time dilation, and it'd explain how Mab knew when the trigger had to be pulled on Maeve's last redemption offer.
raidem:
The rock throw and hit had to be on essentially within hours of each other per vadderung. There did seem to be a big source of energy but I thought it was the tapped demonreach leyline.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on March 02, 2018, 02:08:51 AM ---The cave ceiling a thousand feet below ground level being full of tree roots that Harry narratively lampshades as being impossible under the conventional rules of nature is a pretty big hint there's something else going on with the cave. The stairwell down below and the barrier to the "minimum security" anteroom both pretty much melted out of previously solid material - that's plenty of opportunity for Alfred opening a gate so skillfully that Harry can't even tell it is a gate (another thing he's lampshaded the real pros being able to do).
I don't really buy that it's in the Nevernever either, though. Your reason that Mab was causing the long winter in Chicago by her presence in the cave taking care of Harry in GS is one solid point. Another is that it doesn't really fit with the surface reflecting onto some super-lethal patch of the NN, and putting supernatural supermax right in the Nevernever doesn't seem all that secure against some ungodly powerful creature of the spirit realm deciding to jailbreak its buddy by brute force either. Mainly, though, what seals it for me is that Harry didn't melt and die shortly after returning to Chicago because of all the cells that had been built on being fed intravenously by the tree roots reverting to ectoplasm.
I'm betting it's some sort of weird pocket dimension that Merlin made. Loosely related to how Bob said Harry could create a demesne within the NN if he wanted to invest sufficient effort, but Merlin's much more advanced technique let him put it in between worlds instead.
--- End quote ---
Technically, I agree entirely. But for simplicities sake I wasn't going to add that variable to my own deduction because it just get's more confusing...
But how about... DR is on earth and at it's center it reaches through to the NN sanctum like it's an active portal between the two? i'd already considered the idea for something else.
*what I mean to say is inside the prison, Reality and NN overlap each other in existence.
Kindler:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on March 02, 2018, 02:40:09 AM ---But what if there was a fifth? What if Maeve also attacked during Proven Guilty, sending energy forward to land simultaneously with her planned future attack?
It'd fit the thrown stone analogy, it'd give Harry something to do while there, it'd link the two times we saw time dilation, and it'd explain how Mab knew when the trigger had to be pulled on Maeve's last redemption offer.
--- End quote ---
I'd be happy with that, though as Raidem pointed out, the amount of energy involved required closer temporal proximity, according to Odin (Woden? Wodanaz? Vadderung lacks familiarity, so I've often wondered why he doesn't present himself as Odin—don't the old gods gain in power by spreading stories about themselves? Or am I confusing Vadderung with Wednesday again? Guhll-dang-it, I read too much).
Still, I could actually see Maeve in Proven Guilty traveling forward in time to augment her future attack on Demonreach, and Harry being forced to stop it from happening.
Alternately, and to possibly make it fit with Vadderung's explanation, Maeve was attacking from Proven Guilty's timeline (while Mab was distracted with other things and Lea was on ice) at a point in Demonreach's timeline that was within a few hours of the Cold Days events. So yes, the attack is coming from within a day of the events, but the punch is being thrown years in advance.
It always bothered me why Maeve and Lily waited to do their assault until Harry was alive and kicking. It never made any sense. Why not do it while Harry was a ghost (I get it, Mab was on the island), but they've had years to do it from BEFORE Harry was even the Warden. I've always kind of assumed that Harry claiming Demonreach and personifying the island's genuis loci made it stronger (cuz now it has a Warden), but also made it vulnerable, since now it's a physical thing that can be assaulted, if that makes sense.
Even if you accept that it had to be done on Halloween (because Maeve also wanted to kill Lily, or the attack required it for some other technical reason), there were several Halloweens' worth of missed chances, and a few shots at it before Harry was awake.
Therefore, I propose the following:
1. Maeve saw that Demonreach would have a Warden in the future. This would allow an assault to actually have a chance to succeed.
2. Maeve's infection was discovered by Mab somewhere around Proven Guilty. I believe she was outed by Lea during one of her lucid periods.
3. Maeve, realizing that she wouldn't have much of a chance to do something as big as blowing up Demonreach with Mab looking over her shoulder so closely all the time, hatched a plan to hit Demonreach from multiple points.
4. With Mab distracted by the events of Proven Guilty, Maeve took her chance and sent her attack, whatever form it took.
5. This locked Maeve into her tight timeline; she had to initiate her other attack within a certain timeframe of the one she had sent, so she manipulated events as best she could in order to keep the Warden dead. She thought she might've succeeded until he showed back up in Arctis Tor, but by then it was too late to change her plans.
6. Cold Days happens.
I think that might work, but what do I know?
Also... who summoned He Who Walks Before? Did we ever get an answer to that? Because I sure as heck don't remember it.
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