What do you wish would be done MORE in urban fantasy?

[DragonFire]

  Michael uses magic, its just powered by God,

I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't think we've ever seen Micheal use magic.

[DragonFire]

Personally, when I write magic as science it's because it allows the reader to have a reasonable notion of what is and isn't possible, so you can play fair within the ground rules you set up.  Magic that is not rational means that whatever difficulties and dilemmas your characters get into, there's always the lurking possibility that one of them can pull a magical solution out of their backside and save the day, even if you don't actually do that; and to me that undermines the possibility of generating many kinds of narrative tension.

Fictional takes on magic where you can hear the dice rolling for the damage the fireball does suck, I have no argument there.  The other thing that strikes me as a possibility for magic-as-science, though, and that I've not often seen much done with, is magic-as-science that feels like actual real scientific research does, and has the excitement and adventure of being on an expanding frontier of human knowledge.  As a working sicentist in my day job, this is one of the things I aspire to do in my fiction.

I agree.
It's like in Harry Potter, you have no idea what's possible and what isn't, because there are no defined rules, and apparently, anything you want, really, can be done, with the right word/wand flick.
With 'science-based magic' you KNOW what's possible and what's not, and it lets keep to a far tighter set of ground rules and consequences.

[Quantus]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't think we've ever seen Micheal use magic.

From GP:

"Iesu domine!" Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in ragged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath. "Domine!" Michael shouted, rising, slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water. "Lava quod est sordium!"

Michael didn't come down into the lab with me because the whole concept of using magic without the Almighty behind it didn't sit well with him,

Looks like magic to me.  And how Michael isn't a big fan of magic that God isn't behind, which is a distinct difference than him being against all magic.

Ive been meaning to post a thread on the supposed difference between faith magic and normal magic, so ill do that to not derail this one.

[The Corvidian]

I will admit that magic might be a religion, as it grew out of the rituals used to appease gods and spirits, its just as time went by, the religious trappings where change, or fell out of use. Some types of magic systems did grow out of religion, look at the folk magic of the Pennsylvanis Dutch, or Hoodoo(an outgrowth of Vaudaun). I'll admit that I have been colored by many things that I have read, and said they are source, but sometimes there are bibliographies in the backs of some of those books. I should find a version of the Golden Bough, and read it. I guess, Bulfinche's Mythology could be a source.

Here are a few scientists who were also wizards.

Dr. John Dee
Sir Isaac Newton
Roger Bacon: magical works were attributed to him
Giordano Bruno

[The Corvidian]

From GP:
Looks like magic to me.  And how Michael isn't a big fan of magic that God isn't behind, which is a distinct difference than him being against all magic.

Ive been meaning to post a thread on the supposed difference between faith magic and normal magic, so ill do that to not derail this one.

Couldn't was Micheal does be called Theurgy, as opposed to Thaumaturgy, which is was Harry does?

[Quantus]

Couldn't was Micheal does be called Theurgy, as opposed to Thaumaturgy, which is was Harry does?

Thaumaturgy is just one school of magic that Harry practices.  Its the voodoo doll side of it; Little Chicago and the tracking spells mostly.  He also does a good bit of evocation, for example, and has dabbled in Necromancy.  And Molly's viels would be an illusion, which is likely a separate school.  Theurgy would be as good a term as any, but I dont see how its a separate thing.

[The Corvidian]

Thaumaturgy is just one school of magic that Harry practices.  Its the voodoo doll side of it; Little Chicago and the tracking spells mostly.  He also does a good bit of evocation, for example, and has dabbled in Necromancy.  And Molly's viels would be an illusion, which is likely a separate school.  Theurgy would be as good a term as any, but I dont see how its a separate thing.

The so-called voodoo doll was inspired by poppet magic.

[hamiltond]

I would love to see an urban fantasy were the hero doesn't continually get more and more powerful each freaking book!!  Jim does a good job of this since Harry only gets stronger through time and Tavi's powers a not special at all considering his father and mother.

[Quantus]

I would love to see an urban fantasy were the hero doesn't continually get more and more powerful each freaking book!!  Jim does a good job of this since Harry only gets stronger through time and Tavi's powers a not special at all considering his father and mother.

The power creep is pretty integral to any hero development.  I mean, a hero who doesn't improve is just plain boring.  And a hero who is supposed to be interesting over the course of multiple books has to improve somewhat because the challenges they face in each subsequent book needs to be challenging and more difficult than the last, else why are we interested in this characters development?

Now if your looking for a character who does not become "world-class"  or even in the top tier of power, I recommend the Assassin's Quest Series.  The main character is full-out stunted in his magical development, but he still plays an integral part in the survival of the world

[OZ]

I would love to see an urban fantasy about the Norse Gods with Loki as the hero and the rest as villains. Though all the Norse Gods were harsh Loki was actually far from the worst of them. His main crime was using his intelligence instead of his "manly thews". Even Odin frequently turned to Loki for help when he needed smarts instead of muscle.

I would like to see more urban fantasy where vampires are seen as evil blood sucking dead fiends not necrophiliac love interests. (Thank you Jim. You were the first in a while. A few others seem to be following your lead.)

I would like to read more urban fantasies with adults for the main character(s). Immature (regardless of age) characters seem to be very popular right now. One of the things that impressed me most about Harry Dresden (no I'm not trying to turn this into a praise JB thread but this is the Jim Butcher website after all) is that in spite of having a sense of humor he acts like an adult most of the time. His lack of a love life because he doesn't want to endanger anyone, his pouring the ice water on Molly, etc., etc, even his respect for Michael in spite of not sharing his beliefs all are the actions of maturity. I'm not saying he's perfect or perfectly mature but he does act like an adult most of the time.

[OZ]

Now if your looking for a character who does not become "world-class"  or even in the top tier of power, I recommend the Assassin's Quest Series.  The main character is full-out stunted in his magical development, but he still plays an integral part in the survival of the world

A very well written series but very dark and depressing. I heard the sequel series lightens up just a tad but I haven't read it.

[hamiltond]

Perhaps I should clarify my statement.  What I meant was a character who has a "natural" progression, like Harry, who is studying a specific craft and so it would be logical for them to get better a what the do.  Not unlike a painter or a athlete who goes from being a #1 draft pick to winning the championship in 2 or 3 yrs and being the league MVP.  One of the things that puts me off many characters is the "Path to Godhood" that so many authors in the genre seem to put there characters on ( see Anita Blake).  That's also why I mentioned Tavi, because even if he gets his father's and grandfather's furies at the end of the series, and becomes the most powerful cafter in all of Alera that still won't make him any different than every other male on his father's side of his family since as the First Lords of Alera they were ALL the most powerful men of there time.  So many authors use "flashy effects" in place of good storytelling nowadays.  I don't need my heroes to all be the god of whuppass.  Just believable within the context of the world they're in.

[Sorryman105]

Wish someone would peruse through the thread and careful and concisley put togther the most comman issues in a bull it point list. I bet you see thats its the same three or four issues, and that how an author resolves those issues are what seperate the Butchers from the Hamiltons.

[Kristine]

I don't need my heroes to all be the god of whuppass.  Just believable within the context of the world they're in.

In fact I like it better when the characters have to overcome difficulties within the limited talents they have.  When gaming I have more fun when the character I'm playing is NOT nigh onto godhood but when things are more challenging.  Not to say a character shouldn't grow and learn but he/she most of the time is more fun to watch if they have to manuver around the powerful and their growth is personal.

Or maybe I'm just a sucker for the triumph of the little guy.

[Quantus]

Its kind of why I preferred Marvel comics over DC growing up.  In DC everyone fell somewhere on the Superman Scale, but but where all near gods in one way or another (or actual god, in a few cases) with some crazy broad spectrum of power.  Marvel characters had usually one, but at most a small handful of thematic abilities and the story was about how they utilized them in the given situation.  Granted DC had much more varied and interesting origin stories, rather than the Mutant X-factor catch-all, but still...