Author Topic: Nick's Goal in the Vault  (Read 10564 times)

Offline Rasins

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Nick's Goal in the Vault
« on: December 28, 2017, 04:33:59 PM »
Here's a question .... Why didn't Nick reveal that he wanted more than just the Grail?  He told the group that much, why not say he wanted all of the relics of the Crucifixion?  I know he doesn't want to reveal too much to his enemies, but if he had said he wanted all of them, then Harry would have been obligated give him all of them and not just the Grail.

When he told Harry and crew about what he was wanting, Harry didn't know they were weapons, so it could have been wrapped up in the need to fulfill the obligation to Mab.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 04:59:39 PM »
Nicodemus is probably one of those guys that never tells anyone the full extent of his plans (not unlike wizards, really). My best guess is whatever he had planned for all five artifacts was something he didn't want anyone else figuring out.

Suffice to say, whatever he can do with all five is going to be monumentally worse than what he could do with just the Grail. And letting people figure out and speculate what that might be is practically an invitation for someone to try and stop him.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 06:18:09 PM »
Here's a question .... Why didn't Nick reveal that he wanted more than just the Grail?  He told the group that much, why not say he wanted all of the relics of the Crucifixion?  I know he doesn't want to reveal too much to his enemies, but if he had said he wanted all of them, then Harry would have been obligated give him all of them and not just the Grail.

When he told Harry and crew about what he was wanting, Harry didn't know they were weapons, so it could have been wrapped up in the need to fulfill the obligation to Mab.

Because if he did, the whole mission wouldn't have happened, or that is what he was thinking.   Personally I think it was like a line from "The Lion In Winter..."   Nic knows they were all weapons, Mab knows that they are all weapons, and Nic knows that Mab knows..."  The only one who didn't was Harry, who Mab happened to be testing further in my opinion... Don't be shocked if she is very aware that Harry pocketed the rest of the weapons and that they are just where she wants them...

Offline Talby16

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 08:29:10 PM »
Nic could have told Harry and thus obligated him to help secure all the artifacts, however, he had no way of predicting how Harry would react to that information. If Harry knew that 5 powerful religious artifacts were at stake he might have worked harder to derail the plan along the way. Even at the cost of his own life if he thought the keeping them out of Nic's hands was worth it. Nic has seen how Harry reacts with regards to one artifact (the Shroud) and thus has a baseline to measure Harry's actions/motivations by. Throwing the 5 artifact info out into the open would drastically alter Harry's plans from the get go in my opinion.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 08:51:37 PM »
Because if he did, the whole mission wouldn't have happened, or that is what he was thinking.   Personally I think it was like a line from "The Lion In Winter..."   Nic knows they were all weapons, Mab knows that they are all weapons, and Nic knows that Mab knows..."  The only one who didn't was Harry, who Mab happened to be testing further in my opinion... Don't be shocked if she is very aware that Harry pocketed the rest of the weapons and that they are just where she wants them...

I don't think that Mab not telling Harry was a test.  You don't test someone like that over something so serious because it's no longer a test, it's real.  My guess is either she didn't see a reason to tell him, or even him knowing would be worse than not knowing, or part of the deal with Nicodemus meant she could not tell Harry the nature of the artifacts.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 09:10:51 PM »
Of course Mab knows Harry pocketed the weapons.

That was part of the point of sending him there.
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Offline raidem

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 09:28:27 PM »
I don't think we can assume Nic knew there were 5 items. In fact, the reading suggests he didn't know how many items there were.  He is left with the idea that Harry perhaps had the 'other' item, or possibly 'others'.  The reading does suggest that Nic knew there were more items than one though as Harry believes whatever Nic says he is after isn't exactly all that he is after. 

I think it was the knife that Nic mostly wanted.
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Offline Avernite

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 10:58:20 AM »
I think there's a specific, and very clear, problem with telling Harry: Harry of all people knows the Noose makes Nicodemus almost invulnerable, but not precisely. The Spear of Longinus also makes one (all but) invincible. If Harry knew that Nicodemus was after the means to make himself two-layered invulnerable, he probably would have blown everything up.
Instead, as he discussed about the Grail with Michael, he doesn't precisely understand what Nicodemus could possibly do with it, so he was a bit more sanguine about gambling on it.

It's interesting, here, that the 'gospel of Nicodemus' is the first that goes into detail on the whole Longinus angle.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 02:53:41 PM »
I think there's a specific, and very clear, problem with telling Harry: Harry of all people knows the Noose makes Nicodemus almost invulnerable, but not precisely. The Spear of Longinus also makes one (all but) invincible. If Harry knew that Nicodemus was after the means to make himself two-layered invulnerable, he probably would have blown everything up.
Instead, as he discussed about the Grail with Michael, he doesn't precisely understand what Nicodemus could possibly do with it, so he was a bit more sanguine about gambling on it.

It's interesting, here, that the 'gospel of Nicodemus' is the first that goes into detail on the whole Longinus angle.

The myths surrounding the Lance of Longinus (assuming that's what it is, and I've stated previously that the description is a very close approximation of how you would describe hastae) don't indicate that they make you invulnerable, but unbeatable, a slight but significant distinction. The Spear of Destiny doesn't have the same effect as the Noose. The myths surrounding it—that Charlemagne slept within reach of it, and credited it for something like fifty military victories, or that Hitler seized it in the 1938 Anschluss, when Germany annexed Austria; the legend goes that he went straight to Vienna and took possession of it after seeing it as a young man and feeling the "pull of destiny." Basically, the legend goes that as long as Hitler held it, he wouldn't lose, and that when Patton seized control of "several religious artifacts," Hitler lost, and promptly killed himself. The legends also say that losing possession of the Spear means you die, and that Patton had shipped out the religious artifacts back to the States, and was promptly killed in a car accident on base. (This is based on spotty accounts that have been sensationalized greatly over the past sixty years; there's really no evidence that Hitler had it. A man named Trevor Ravenscroft wrote a book about Hitler and the Spear in the seventies as a way to explain how a talentless Austrian painter could have become one of histories greatest monsters. His source was "a friend," which should tell you everything you need to know.)

Basically, the myths indicate that the Lance of Longinus make you a badass conqueror as long as you have it, but the second you lose it, you pay the price. The whole invulnerability thing was popularized by movies like Constantine (which is still a favorite of mine—I think it's urban fantasy done right, and couldn't have been more disappointed in the show).

Anyway, something that fits the myths surrounding the Spear of Destiny would be invaluable to Nic's long-term plans; they'd all work out how he intended. (Also worth noting that the moment Dresden picks it up, all of his plans work out extraordinarily well.) Speaking of which, what happens to the "leaf-shaped blade" during the fight at the Carpenters'? Does Butters take it when he picks up Harry's duster? Cuz that would explain some things...

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 03:21:17 PM »
Anyway, something that fits the myths surrounding the Spear of Destiny would be invaluable to Nic's long-term plans; they'd all work out how he intended. (Also worth noting that the moment Dresden picks it up, all of his plans work out extraordinarily well.) Speaking of which, what happens to the "leaf-shaped blade" during the fight at the Carpenters'? Does Butters take it when he picks up Harry's duster? Cuz that would explain some things...
I pointed out the same thing in a thread a while ago (that Harry had it for the last bits of the Hades part of the book and thus couldn't lose), but I think he gives them all to Michael before heading to the Carpenter house, doesn't he?
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2017, 08:31:33 PM »
I pointed out the same thing in a thread a while ago (that Harry had it for the last bits of the Hades part of the book and thus couldn't lose), but I think he gives them all to Michael before heading to the Carpenter house, doesn't he?

Great minds think alike. I'm not sure about the disposition of the remaining artifacts vis-a-vis Casa di Carpenter. I'll probably check at some point this weekend if nobody else does it for me, because I'm feeling particularly lazy at the moment.

Offline Mira

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2017, 04:05:19 PM »
I don't think that Mab not telling Harry was a test.  You don't test someone like that over something so serious because it's no longer a test, it's real.  My guess is either she didn't see a reason to tell him, or even him knowing would be worse than not knowing, or part of the deal with Nicodemus meant she could not tell Harry the nature of the artifacts.


You are forgetting what Hades told Harry,  the process of inquiring the artifacts/weapons is a test... As in only the strongest and smartest is good enough to end up with them, this is the safe guard..  There are no cheat sheets,  for the war to come Mab wants her Knight to be the smartest and the brightest and holding the weapons..  Nick thinks he is the smartest and the strongest, so he thinks he is being clever just asking for the Grail, figuring he will then easily get the rest of the artifacts..  Mab is gambling that Harry is the smartest and the strongest, so he will end up with the weapons, and if not, he dies, she looks for another Knight...  Nic loses because if Harry fails he isn't going to get the weapons..  If Nic really was the smartest and the strongest he wouldn't have needed to call in the favor in the first place to use Mab's Knight.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2017, 07:23:06 PM »

You are forgetting what Hades told Harry,  the process of inquiring the artifacts/weapons is a test... As in only the strongest and smartest is good enough to end up with them, this is the safe guard..  There are no cheat sheets,  for the war to come Mab wants her Knight to be the smartest and the brightest and holding the weapons..  Nick thinks he is the smartest and the strongest, so he thinks he is being clever just asking for the Grail, figuring he will then easily get the rest of the artifacts..  Mab is gambling that Harry is the smartest and the strongest, so he will end up with the weapons, and if not, he dies, she looks for another Knight...  Nic loses because if Harry fails he isn't going to get the weapons..  If Nic really was the smartest and the strongest he wouldn't have needed to call in the favor in the first place to use Mab's Knight.

Mab testing Harry is implying she does not believe him capable yet...  I believe she sent him on this mission (setting up Nicodemus to make the attempt) because she believed he would succeed, and get her revenge, not as a test.  It was clear by the end of the book she set up Nicodemus to get revenge.  I don't see Mab attempting revenge lightly.  If she's gonna try, she plans on winning.  So again, not a test.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2017, 10:04:23 PM »
Mab testing Harry is implying she does not believe him capable yet...  I believe she sent him on this mission (setting up Nicodemus to make the attempt) because she believed he would succeed, and get her revenge, not as a test.  It was clear by the end of the book she set up Nicodemus to get revenge.  I don't see Mab attempting revenge lightly.  If she's gonna try, she plans on winning.  So again, not a test.


She would get her revenge in any case, even if Harry failed to get the weapons, simply because her object was to break Nic which she did.'

Offline groinkick

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Re: Nick's Goal in the Vault
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2018, 04:49:05 AM »

She would get her revenge in any case, even if Harry failed to get the weapons, simply because her object was to break Nic which she did.'

If Harry had failed Nic's daughter would not have been sacrificed because the ice test was before the human sacrifice.  Nicodemus would have been upset but Harry Dresden would have been dead (a big plus for Nicodemus), and Mab would have still owed him a favor + interest for her failure to keep her end of the bargain.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.