The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
jonas:
--- Quote from: Firestarter on December 15, 2017, 05:46:20 PM ---Of course I do. Naagloshii are messengers [ or their descedants ] of North American gods. The territory part comes with the mythology. They are most definitely not Outsiders. Fomors are insiders too. So are various other demons and deities.
If you think otherwise, maybe re-read the books again...?
--- End quote ---
Maybe hold the snark before I show you how it's done...?
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates. Yea, yea, Nemesis isn't... but she is, reread what Titania told Harry and why that would be, it's okay to call it The Adversary but Not Nemesis as, it will attract it's attention. The only known mechanism that works precisely that way is Naming things(heck we have a literal Greek example in Hades, who wears Mordite on his crown). No reason to make up a whole new mechanism when a known effect is applicable, nor would it necessarily be a stronger case..
Which would naturally lead to the rebuttal that Hades is part of reality, his spirit is true, in so much as it's still attached to it's original human memory of him.
Then we have MS's comment to MW that it's not 'her' world. The comparison of MW as the longest shadow and Lucifer as the deepest, the fact though both those things exist in human memory they are in fact both simply reflections of direct inside universe immortals. Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom. This is not directly from any biblical sourcing I know of, this is his own spin and ergo directly relevant. Hell, even Mab is actually just the shadow of Titania, even though she has more purchase inside reality than any demon of an active religion as a story book character...
Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.
Also, comparing Angels to Ghosts(as is obliquely done in GS) they scale to the same set of choices to make the same relevant change in reply. Angels can stay out of it and do only what they are meant to or they Fall. Ghosts can respect that same veil between the NN and reality or they too go completely batshit from it. Though the effects are different the causality is actually quite similar if not the same. Almost everything can be applied to this model I think..
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: jonas on December 15, 2017, 03:41:36 PM ---We got the very British sounding guy everyone is willing to accept as Nefected but conceivably an actual mortal... but totally leave behind the signifigence of him saying he needs to be in their and why that is.
--- End quote ---
Since when has everyone been willing to accept that guy as Nemfected? Last I heard, the prevailing wisdom was that he was the original Merlin and in there voluntarily.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: jonas on December 15, 2017, 04:59:50 PM --- The whole can't exist outside of own domain without incurring debt and their descendant Grey's need to pay Rent,
--- End quote ---
Have we some evidence for Grey's Rent being a general skinwalker thing rather than specific to Grey in particular, who seems to be only part-skinwalker? The comparison that makes most sense to me there is the changelings in SK (and Sarissa in CD) making particular efforts to choose to be human or Faerie or indeed to defer choosing.
Firestarter:
--- Quote from: jonas on December 15, 2017, 06:29:55 PM ---Maybe hold the snark before I show you how it's done...?
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates. Yea, yea, Nemesis isn't... but she is, reread what Titania told Harry and why that would be, it's okay to call it The Adversary but Not Nemesis as, it will attract it's attention. The only known mechanism that works precisely that way is Naming things(heck we have a literal Greek example in Hades, who wears Mordite on his crown). No reason to make up a whole new mechanism when a known effect is applicable, nor would it necessarily be a stronger case..
Which would naturally lead to the rebuttal that Hades is part of reality, his spirit is true, in so much as it's still attached to it's original human memory of him.
Then we have MS's comment to MW that it's not 'her' world. The comparison of MW as the longest shadow and Lucifer as the deepest, the fact though both those things exist in human memory they are in fact both simply reflections of direct inside universe immortals. Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom. This is not directly from any biblical sourcing I know of, this is his own spin and ergo directly relevant. Hell, even Mab is actually just the shadow of Titania, even though she has more purchase inside reality than any demon of an active religion as a story book character...
Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.
Also, comparing Angels to Ghosts(as is obliquely done in GS) they scale to the same set of choices to make the same relevant change in reply. Angels can stay out of it and do only what they are meant to or they Fall. Ghosts can respect that same veil between the NN and reality or they too go completely batshit from it. Though the effects are different the causality is actually quite similar if not the same. Almost everything can be applied to this model I think..
--- End quote ---
Outsiders are beings from outside our reality. That's how they are always described.
And I'm fairly certain, that Nemesis isn't the greek goddess of retribution and just punishment. I'm farily certain, that it has something to do with modern english meaning of the world which is akin to "Enemy", "Adversary" or "Satan" ..
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: jonas on December 15, 2017, 06:29:55 PM ---=
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe we have had it confirmed that the infiltrator Nemesis was literally the Greek goddess Nemesis, rather than another entity taking up that name (like the Lords of Outer Night pretending to be the Mayan gods).
--- Quote ---Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom.
--- End quote ---
I am now trying to remember which theology it is where Lucifer's revolt is prompted by being absolutely horrified that the WG would be so evil as to enable humans to make choices that would deny them Heaven.
Besides, TWG is all judgey. Lucifer loves and rewards everyone, no matter how bad. The bit in the Gospels about loving your enemies comes to mind.
--- Quote ---Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.
--- End quote ---
There's a connection between necromancy and Outsiders, beyond that free-willed humans interested in causing havoc mess about with them both and the White Council think both are a bad idea?
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