The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
Talby16:
--- Quote from: Cozarkian on November 10, 2017, 09:49:20 PM ---Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds.
--- End quote ---
Harry was teaching Moly how to defend her mind and fight back by trying to project one image (Darth Vader in his TIE fighter) past each other's defenses. He was not teaching her how to dominate/enthrall another's mind.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM ---Harry and Molly did not enthrall each other and they did not invade each others mind.
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They didn't enthrall each other, but I'm pretty sure they "invaded" each other's minds. Harry describes them playing war with each other's minds in GS. Now, technically, they had permission and they didn't actually make any changes to each others' minds or harm each other, so it wasn't literally invading. They didn't enthrall each other, and even if Justin enthralled Elaine with her permission, that was worse, but to me it if falls into the same category as snowballs v. stones.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM --- Because he tried to enthrall Harry as well?
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It looks like he was going to try to enthrall Harry as well, but we don't know that for certain and again, Justin could have had misguided "benevolent" reasons for planning to enthrall Harry, such as training/nemesis detection.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM --- Because being enthralled does not help with anything, ask Luccio.
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Did Luccio know she was enthralled? The entire White Council is negligent on mental defense training. Maybe if Luccio had training in being enthralled she could have recognized and resisted the influence and La Fortier would still be alive.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM ---Why infect an apprentice? Nemesis is usually more picky than that.
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To take control of a potential starborn before she has come into her full power.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM --- Justin underestimated Harry.
--- End quote ---
True, but irrelevant.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM ---Elaine could escape because Harry killed Justin.
--- End quote ---
How? If she was still enthralled, she couldn't move until Justin was dead and the spell was broken, and at that point there is a good chance it would have been too late. Either Justin removed the enthrallment, saved her, or Elaine already knew how to open Ways to the NN and was therefore more powerful at that age than we know.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM ---In ghost story Harry tells about Justin and Lea agrees with him. I think that was conclusive enough.
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I don't remember that. I thought GS was the book that gave hints that Justin wasn't all bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to do a reread.
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 10, 2017, 10:22:30 PM ---Justin was one of the bad guys. He would not save Elaine if his own life was on the line.
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Maybe, and more likely true than not, but there is absolutely room for reasonable doubt.
jonas:
--- Quote from: wardenferry419 on November 08, 2017, 10:00:54 AM ---I agree with it being Outsidery. It is the details I am curious about.
--- End quote ---
I'm quite curious on the ruby in his ear and it's ties to bloodline magic, especially considering other WCV/Outsider connections. Yea, yea, not what woj says, but woj says tongue and cheekly.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Cozarkian on November 13, 2017, 02:55:16 PM ---They didn't enthrall each other, but I'm pretty sure they "invaded" each other's minds. Harry describes them playing war with each other's minds in GS. Now, technically, they had permission and they didn't actually make any changes to each others' minds or harm each other, so it wasn't literally invading. They didn't enthrall each other, and even if Justin enthralled Elaine with her permission, that was worse, but to me it if falls into the same category as snowballs v. stones.
--- End quote ---
It is fundamentally different. Not just because Justin was breaking the laws and Harry was not or because Harry was strengthening Molly and Justin was weakening her but also because messing with someones free will like that is fundamentally evil in the dresdenverse.
--- Quote ---It looks like he was going to try to enthrall Harry as well, but we don't know that for certain and again,
--- End quote ---
Harry told us in ghost story and these are his true memories. Lea confirmed it.
--- Quote ---Justin could have had misguided "benevolent" reasons for planning to enthrall Harry, such as training/nemesis detection.
Did Luccio know she was enthralled?
--- End quote ---
After the fact and she told Harry how confused it made her, read their discussion at the end of turncoat. And Lucio was an experienced wizard, elaine was just a young girl.
--- Quote ---The entire White Council is negligent on mental defense training. Maybe if Luccio had training in being enthralled she could have recognized and resisted the influence and La Fortier would still be alive.
To take control of a potential starborn before she has come into her full power.
True, but irrelevant.
How? If she was still enthralled, she couldn't move until Justin was dead
--- End quote ---
Enthralled does not mean turned into a statue. She could certainly flee fire, that is instinctual.
--- Quote ---and the spell was broken, and at that point there is a good chance it would have been too late. Either Justin removed the enthrallment, saved her, or Elaine already knew how to open Ways to the NN and was therefore more powerful at that age than we know.
--- End quote ---
Elaine probably had simmilar connections to summer as harry had to winter. They found her and they made a deal.
--- Quote --- I don't remember that. I thought GS was the book that gave hints that Justin wasn't all bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to do a reread.
Maybe, and more likely true than not, but there is absolutely room for reasonable doubt.
--- End quote ---
Lea is always good for some insights when she doing her duty as godmother:
--- Quote ---“That was my first fight,” I said quietly to my godmother. “I’d never used magic to hurt anything before.” I rubbed my hand over my head. “If I hadn’t cut class that day . . . I don’t know. I might never have become what I did.”
“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.”
“It seems that way,” I hedged, trying to read her expression. “But Justin never actually tried to get me to hurt anyone.”
“Why would he wish you to be armed against him before he was certain of your loyalty?” Lea asked. “He would have. It was inevitable.”
“Probably,” I said. “But there’s no way we can know, really. It’s a long way from breaking boards in practice to breaking bones in life.”
“Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”
I grunted and leaned my head back against the wall of my grave.
“All the wishing in the world will not change the past, my godson,” Lea said. “You would like to believe that perhaps Justin had hidden good intentions of some sort. That what happened between you was some kind of misunderstanding. But you understood him perfectly.”
“Yeah. Probably. I’d forgotten how much it hurt—that’s all,” I said quietly. “I’d forgotten how much I loved him. How much I wanted him to be proud of me.”
“Children are vulnerable,” Lea said. “They are easily deceived and notoriously subject to such delusions. You are no longer a child.”
--- End quote ---
That seems enough for me to dispell all notions of a good justin.
Talby16:
Thanks for digging that quote up. Should put the good justin theory to bed.
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