Nicodemus wants to be God

[SintraEdrien]

I doubt that she'll be getting much napping done.

She spent the last few centuries committing horrible atrocities for "The Greater Good" Stop saying that! and the Greeks were big on ironic punishments. So, seeing as she liked to use her hair to blenderize people, she's probably going to spend all of eternity crawling naked through a field of Razor wire.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer more deserving girl.

Fixed that for you.

But really, in my opinion, her sincerity is real, but meaningless. WoJ has said that actions, not intentions, matter, and produce consequences. I see her punishment in Hades more as a consequence of her acts than as a retributive sentence levelled by a jury trial. I think that is more what Hades was trying to convey to Harry in that conversation, even though the resulting outcome (torment) may approach similarity.

[jonas]

#1.  She doesn't seem the type for self sacrifice.  Haven't seen any redeeming quality from her the entire series.
#2.  Nicodemus believes God will lose, making me believe he has an idea or plan on why he'll lose.
#3.  Nicodemus stored her soul in a place where their "enemy" can't get it which makes me believe he cannot gain access to hell, but he can return to Hades realm.
#4.  His plan was to obtain many powerful holy relics which uses are unknown but considering that a powerful being who's blood touched them rose from the dead gives reason to believe that they may have the power to raise someone else.
#5.  There is a girl within the series who has been in a coma, and therefor her importance for the story could be her body being used as a vessel.  If she serves no importance, why have her in the story at all?
#6.  Hades is not the power he once was.  Souls are stored in his realm but he does appear to be a being that can make deals, or be simply overpowered, meaning the souls are not in some unbreakable vault.

Well done there..

[Ananda]

#1.  She doesn't seem the type for self sacrifice.  Haven't seen any redeeming quality from her the entire series.
#2.  Nicodemus believes God will lose, making me believe he has an idea or plan on why he'll lose.
#3.  Nicodemus stored her soul in a place where their "enemy" can't get it which makes me believe he cannot gain access to hell, but he can return to Hades realm.
#4.  His plan was to obtain many powerful holy relics which uses are unknown but considering that a powerful being who's blood touched them rose from the dead gives reason to believe that they may have the power to raise someone else.
#5.  There is a girl within the series who has been in a coma, and therefor her importance for the story could be her body being used as a vessel.  If she serves no importance, why have her in the story at all?
#6.  Hades is not the power he once was.  Souls are stored in his realm but he does appear to be a being that can make deals, or be simply overpowered, meaning the souls are not in some unbreakable vault.

You’re talking about Nic again, not Deirdre. You’re really conflating the two. What is in the book is a frank talk from Deirdre about Deirdre saving the universe. Her conversation contains no hint that she has a trick up her shirt. She is being sincere, in my opinion. That’s why I had mentioned her openness and vulnerability in the chst she had with Dresden.

[Ananda]

Fixed that for you.

But really, in my opinion, her sincerity is real, but meaningless. WoJ has said that actions, not intentions, matter, and produce consequences.

I don’t follow Butcher’s q&a stuff from his marketing appearances, just the book (no short stories, either). An interesting side effect of this statement, though, is how we should then look at the death of Susan. If only actions matter, then Dresden murdered his daughter’s mother. And, that’s just one of the most obvious actions to revisit. I’d think a more nuanced perspective would work better otherwise, you’re into absolutism in a grey world.

What I like about this character, Deirdre, is that she represents both horror, ugliness and pain on one hand, but also victimhood, love and selfless sacrifice on another.

As most here would agree, she is a self serving, angry person with a long history of brutal and perhaps even casual violence doling out death when it suits her without a second thought. Her disdain for those outside her circle was made clear.

On the other hand, she seems to truly love her family and, for lack of better word, her colleagues. She was born into that circumstance. She was as much a victim of the denarians as any others cited in the books. Moreso than most, even as they got death’s release whereas she was moulded into complicity. She’s the twisted reflection of herself; her capacity to love, to care corrupted and turned on itself. Yet, she stll holds the capacity for love, for selfless sacrifice.

Anyway, I think she one of the more interesting characters in the books. Most are pretty shallow, but her appearance in this last book elevated the character over most of the others in the serial.

[groinkick]

You’re talking about Nic again, not Deirdre.

I have said repeatedly why she's doing what she did, personal gain.  Nicodemus is mentioned because he's directly tied to the plan succeeding if there is such a plan.

You’re really conflating the two. What is in the book is a frank talk from Deirdre about Deirdre saving the universe. Her conversation contains no hint that she has a trick up her shirt. She is being sincere, in my opinion. That’s why I had mentioned her openness and vulnerability in the chst she had with Dresden.

She is talking to Harry, a man who always looks for the best in people, particularly women.  She, and her Fallen would absolutely take advantage of that.  It's possible she was being honest, and is trying to save the universe with no other motive.  However her past cannot be ignored, and for her to sacrifice herself is to go against what we know of her.  It would be like Harry deciding he didn't feel like saving a woman in distress...  It goes against his very nature.

[wardenferry419]

This is a woman who knowingly, willingly, and joyfully had sex with her father for possibly hundreds of years. I understand loving your family. But, you gotta stop before you get to the "bump and grind" part.
As for the similaritiy between Harry killing Susan and Nico killing Deirdre it is, basically, male lover penetrating their female lover with a sharp object until they experience the big death instead of the small death. Other than that, the similarities decline and the differences take over.

[Arjan]

This is a woman who knowingly, willingly, and joyfully had sex with her father for possibly hundreds of years. I understand loving your family. But, you gotta stop before you get to the "bump and grind" part.
As for the similaritiy between Harry killing Susan and Nico killing Deirdre it is, basically, male lover penetrating their female lover with a sharp object until they experience the big death instead of the small death. Other than that, the similarities decline and the differences take over.

The question you can ask yourself is if there is any transgression that justifies eternal punishment. If someone can not be saved and is a danger for everyone else locking her up forever or if that can not be achieved securely ending her existence is probably justified but torture forever?

There were serious saints who argued in their writings that one of the joys in haven is to watch the torturing of the damned downstairs from your place in the clouds. That is not healthy. Just get it over with.

[wardenferry419]

Personally, I go the agnostic atheist road. But, within the Dresdenverse, Heaven and Hell do seem to exist and they seem to be similar to the Demesne visited in GP just larger in size and encompassing more than one person's POV. So, in that case, the afterlife should reflect the actions and intentions of the person when they lived.
Carmichael alive was a good cop who died heroically but a bit of a jerk and a slob. In his afterlife, he is still a cop but in the best shape of his life. Agatha Hagglethorn was an abused wife who killed her child and her husband, the first was accidental and the second wasn't. Her afterlife reflects the torments of her life and the acts of madness that occurred prior to her death. In GS, there are numerous ghosts that still carry the burdens or benefits of their living actions.
Now, we have Deirdre. While we don't know the entirety of her life; from the sampling we have seen, we can speculate that it was not a life well-lived. For her to be rewarded seems to run counter to previous examples. So, therefore, some punishment is due and should be expected. Hades expressed quite firmly that Deirdre would not be driving down Gravy street on biscuit wheels. Now, whether it should be eternal punishment or not; I leave to the creator.

[jonas]

This is a woman who knowingly, willingly, and joyfully had sex with her father for possibly hundreds of years. I understand loving your family. But, you gotta stop before you get to the "bump and grind" part.
As for the similaritiy between Harry killing Susan and Nico killing Deirdre it is, basically, male lover penetrating their female lover with a sharp object until they experience the big death instead of the small death. Other than that, the similarities decline and the differences take over.

Oh no, thematically those two acts are just as similar as they are opposite.. in the grand scheme of things one could say Nico's made every bad choice Dresden was ever offered. He's the perfect inversion of everything Harry is.  Harry and Susan's selflessness is just as defining as Nic and (I always forget her name) *insert name here* lack of.

[wardenferry419]

I agree that Nico's actions are twisted mirroring of Harry's actions when it came to their daughters. Harry didn't get to raise his daughter; Nico did. Harry saved his daughter from an evil power; Nico made Deirdre the host to one. Harry found Maggie a good home and family structure, though it was not his home; Nico did not. Harry sacrificed another in Maggie's place; Nico maybe could have but chose not to. Harry accepted a terrible burden to save a daughter; Nico sacrificed a daughter to gain a prize.
I was thinking in terms of how Harry and Nico are connected in terms of sacrificing their respective lovers. Which, in Harry's case, was someone that he was not related to; a claim that Nico can not make.

[Ananda]

She is talking to Harry, a man who always looks for the best in people, particularly women.  She, and her Fallen would absolutely take advantage of that.  It's possible she was being honest, and is trying to save the universe with no other motive.  However her past cannot be ignored, and for her to sacrifice herself is to go against what we know of her.  It would be like Harry deciding he didn't feel like saving a woman in distress...  It goes against his very nature.

This is better. Now, you are talking about Deirdre.

The thing about her is that we know very little of her inner-self. We only know what biased information that Dresden gives us until her short conversation with him. I think that was meant to be an insight into her, even though filtered through Dresden’s contempt for her.

What do we actually know of her?
She was a child victim of the denarians.
She was twisted, corrupted and otherwise turned into a dark reflection of a loving daughter as a child.
She went on to be part of the cult she was born into, indoctrinated into as an adult.
She killed people for her own reasons in the amoral social structure of which she was a part.
She feels deeply (if her short chat is  truly mesnt to be an insight).
She willingly sacrificed herself to save the universe.

That’s what we know. The rest is speculation based on the unreliable and biased narration of someone who holds her in contempt.

I see most conversation about her immediately turns to Nic, but I think (after skin game (before that, she was pretty undefined)) she’s an interesting character on her own and worth a closer examination (which I can’t do now because i am making dinner).

[SintraEdrien]

This is better. Now, you are talking about Deirdre.

The thing about her is that we know very little of her inner-self. We only know what biased information that Dresden gives us until her short conversation with him. I think that was meant to be an insight into her, even though filtered through Dresden’s contempt for her.

What do we actually know of her?
 
She feels deeply (if her short chat is  truly mesnt to be an insight).
*she claims*

She willingly sacrificed herself to save the universe.
*she claims*

That’s what we know. The rest All of this is speculation based on the unreliable and biased narration of someone who holds her in contempt.

I see most conversation about her immediately turns to Nic, but I think (after skin game (before that, she was pretty undefined)) she’s an interesting character on her own and worth a closer examination (which I can’t do now because i am making dinner).

Basically, you seem to be claiming that Harry is a bad biased unreliable narrator until he reports the parts that seem to support your desired outcome, and then he is an accurate unbiased recorder of events. This is a conflation of watsonian and doylist viewponts, forced by you into the books themselves. I cannot therefore accept your propositions as valid. I have inserted what I believe to be appropriate modifications to your claims as quoted above, and would like to hear an argument made that clearly separates in-novel viewpoints from reader viewpoints as applied to what we have read.

[Ananda]

Basically, you seem to be claiming that Harry is a bad biased unreliable narrator until he reports the parts that seem to support your desired outcome, and then he is an accurate unbiased recorder of events. This is a conflation of watsonian and doylist viewponts, forced by you into the books themselves. I cannot therefore accept your propositions as valid. I have inserted what I believe to be appropriate modifications to your claims as quoted above, and would like to hear an argument made that clearly separates in-novel viewpoints from reader viewpoints as applied to what we have read.

Sorry, UNTIL refers to having no glimpse into her inner-self UNTIL that conversation not that the narrator suddenly became reliable. In essence, that was the first time we heard her talk about herself, therefore my use of UNTIL. I can see how that could be unclear with the way I wrote it, though. Since that miscommunication was the basis for your response, I think we can drop all that followed as predicated on a misunderstanding.

*I used caps rather than bold as on a mobile device and it was easier.

[Kindler]

Deirdre had either centuries or millennia to figure out that murder was wrong, and she never did. There comes a certain point where indoctrination is no longer a valid excuse and you have to take responsibility for your own actions. I'll give her a hundred year pass. Still leaves a dozen or two centuries or gleeful murder.

As for her sacrificing herself to save the universe, I don't believe that for a second. If she and Nic are trying to save reality, it's because nobody is allowed to break their toys but them. It's not about selflessness, it's about possession. I see her sacrifice as a Thanatos Gambit, where her death was part of a plan to defeat her enemies. I see it as spite. Her sacrifice, in my opinion, is a dark mirror of Shiro's.

[wardenferry419]

Yep, the good guys tend not to smile so much as they kill priests and bankers.