Wizard strength level

[Mr. Death]

Likewise, the opposite is like saying Harry was 4' at 8 and 6'9" at 18, so he should have been 12'3" by SG.

Granted. There's almost certainly an upper limit. But we've seen older wizards do feats of sheer power that Harry simply isn't capable of (like the Merlin making a ward on the fly to hold back the entire Red Court), and he's considered one of the strongest in his generation. He's been compared to Ebenezer at his age, and Ebenezer is distinctly more powerful than Harry.

[groinkick]

Granted. There's almost certainly an upper limit. But we've seen older wizards do feats of sheer power that Harry simply isn't capable of (like the Merlin making a ward on the fly to hold back the entire Red Court), and he's considered one of the strongest in his generation. He's been compared to Ebenezer at his age, and Ebenezer is distinctly more powerful than Harry.

Is that raw power or just being much more efficient than Harry?  Harry has mentioned in multiple books how his magic "sloshes" out because he's not that efficient.  Jim has mentioned how powerful belief is, stating that a truly dark wizard can do some crazy stuff because they believe they can.  Harry may have just as much, if not more raw power.  He's just less experienced, less efficient, and his belief probably isn't as strong. 

Course I think Jim said something about how a wizards power grows until they are around 50, and then stays there for hundreds of years?  Harry might be a decade or so from his full, raw power.

[TheCuriousFan]

Granted. There's almost certainly an upper limit. But we've seen older wizards do feats of sheer power that Harry simply isn't capable of (like the Merlin making a ward on the fly to hold back the entire Red Court), and he's considered one of the strongest in his generation. He's been compared to Ebenezer at his age, and Ebenezer is distinctly more powerful than Harry.

Or maybe his generation just sucks, I guess that's the other explanation for why the strongest of his generation is only top 30 or so.

Is that raw power or just being much more efficient than Harry?  Harry has mentioned in multiple books how his magic "sloshes" out because he's not that efficient.  Jim has mentioned how powerful belief is, stating that a truly dark wizard can do some crazy stuff because they believe they can.  Harry may have just as much, if not more raw power.  He's just less experienced, less efficient, and his belief probably isn't as strong. 

Course I think Jim said something about how a wizards power grows until they are around 50, and then stays there for hundreds of years?  Harry might be a decade or so from his full, raw power.

That was talking about how they age until about 50 or so and stay there.

[groinkick]

Or maybe his generation just sucks, I guess that's the other explanation for why the strongest of his generation is only top 30 or so.

huh?

[Avernite]

Or maybe his generation just sucks, I guess that's the other explanation for why the strongest of his generation is only top 30 or so.

And here I thought Harry delivered a challenge to the entire Senior Council and showed. And the Senior Council chose to deploy 3 of its members to handle him. Almost as if they would believe he's not all that bad, certainly more than just top 30.

Given natural progression from getting more efficient, Harry might well be stronger than any on the Senior Council (although by such strength levels, skill in a particular theme is more critical).

[exartiem]

I can describe it in painting terms.  Harry is drawing from a 5 gallon bucket, but right now he only has a 24" roller to apply it with.  Whereas Molly is only drawing from a 1/2 quart can, but she is using an airbrush.  Harry is great at painting a house, Molly can do a portrait.

Ebenezer has the 5 gallon bucket and a variety of brushes and rollers.

[TheCuriousFan]

huh?

It's a joke.

[groinkick]

It's a joke.

oh ok lol

[Sir Huron Stone]

I'm pretty sure there's an absolute upper limit for how much energy a human can handle. Not his tank, or his skill, but how much they can handle flowing through them at once. I'm looking at it like a lightbulb. It can channel energy pretty well, but eventually that filament just pops. I have a feeling at some point we're going to get a look at a Wizard or Warlock who goes too far, tries to channel/hold/manipulate too much energy and either catches fire, their head explodes, or just winks out of existence. We saw before at Chichen Itza where Harry pulled in the energy from the Ley line to power the Earth spell, and felt pressure in his head, and I think he felt overheated, although I can't be sure as I don't have my copy of Changes on hand. Shouldn't have stored my books with the Army. Gonna take forever to get them back.

[groinkick]

I'm pretty sure there's an absolute upper limit for how much energy a human can handle. Not his tank, or his skill, but how much they can handle flowing through them at once. I'm looking at it like a lightbulb. It can channel energy pretty well, but eventually that filament just pops. I have a feeling at some point we're going to get a look at a Wizard or Warlock who goes too far, tries to channel/hold/manipulate too much energy and either catches fire, their head explodes, or just winks out of existence. We saw before at Chichen Itza where Harry pulled in the energy from the Ley line to power the Earth spell, and felt pressure in his head, and I think he felt overheated, although I can't be sure as I don't have my copy of Changes on hand. Shouldn't have stored my books with the Army. Gonna take forever to get them back.

My guess is that when a Wizard reaches the threshold you mention that it's around the time they become more...  Probably via Mantle which allows them to channel even more.  Most likely because anyone who reaches this limit is not likely to reach it, and be happy with it.  They will reach further.

[Mira]

   Yeah, the way I understand it a wizard is born with a "raw talent/power" baseline, some are greater than others.. Harry was born powerful, just as some people are born with a high I.Q.   But that only carries a wizard so far, he/she also needs to study, train, and gain experience to reach their full potential, not unlike someone who is born very intelligent.  As Eb pointed out to Harry when he took on Molly to train, doing so would make him stronger simply because he suddenly will find he has to work at it... And so it has, in areas where he was weak before, veils for example before were barely passable, now they are effective..  His over all strength has improved because he has been forced to study to keep ahead and teach Molly.  This has worked in other non-talent ways as well, Harry can now understand and speak in Latin decently.
One thing that has held Harry back before he took on Molly was his own admitted laziness..  He did pretty well without breaking a sweat, so he simply didn't....   

[groinkick]

   Yeah, the way I understand it a wizard is born with a "raw talent/power" baseline, some are greater than others.. Harry was born powerful, just as some people are born with a high I.Q.   But that only carries a wizard so far, he/she also needs to study, train, and gain experience to reach their full potential, not unlike someone who is born very intelligent.  As Eb pointed out to Harry when he took on Molly to train, doing so would make him stronger simply because he suddenly will find he has to work at it... And so it has, in areas where he was weak before, veils for example before were barely passable, now they are effective..  His over all strength as improved because he has been forced to study to keep ahead and teach Molly.  This has worked in other non-talent ways as well, Harry can now understand and speak in Latin decently.
One thing that has held Harry back before he took on Molly was his own admitted laziness..  He did pretty well without breaking a sweat, so he simply didn't....

Exactly.  Jim has said that in a lot of ways Molly is a better wizard than Harry.  That's not on her raw power, but she's sharper than Harry.  Harry's raw power combined with great efficiency at this point in the story would make him overpowered, something Jim wants to avoid.  Plus this gives Harry growing room.

[jonas]

Exactly.  Jim has said that in a lot of ways Molly is a better wizard than Harry.  That's not on her raw power, but she's sharper than Harry.  Harry's raw power combined with great efficiency at this point in the story would make him overpowered, something Jim wants to avoid.  Plus this gives Harry growing room.

Mmm my yes... What I love is since Harry saw Ivy spitfire in SmF he knows just how far he could he really go compared to what he'd seen before. Harry with that kind of skill is mindboggling, and yet fun
I'd like to see him get pushed more on that front, a nice 3-1 wizards duel with Harry slugging it out with that Wiley trait lol.

[Snark Knight]

*  Hades refers to Lady/queen/Mother as Hecate - which is a fellow goddess of the Olympian pantheon.  In that panethon,, Hades was considered far more powerful.   And there are many gods and many pantheons.

They originated as Hecate, but they haven't been sitting on their hands since then.

WOJ (https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/58oz87/spoilers_all_the_full_effects_of_darkhallow/):

For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

[Mr. Death]

I've been avoiding doing this because I know it's kind of an annoying habit, but what we're basically looking at here is the game's mechanics for Thaumaturgy. The relevant bit is that, when doing a spell, a wizard can safely channel energy based on his or her Conviction stat, which in someone of Harry's ability is going to be 5 or even 6. There's a discipline roll involved, but Conviction sets the limit for the most they can move through them at any one time. The way it works is, power up to their Conviction they can call up without taking any stress, and it's one stress per unit of power beyond that.

Normally, a character can have at most 4 stress boxes; so a wizard with 6 in Conviction could channel up to 10 units of power at once without taking a consequence. Consequences come in four strengths (2,4,6,8), and you can take multiples at a time; in addition, having a 5 or more in conviction nets you an extra consequence at the lowest level. Effectively adding 22 units to that max of 10; so, a wizard of Harry's raw strength can, in one go, take on 32 units of power at once. This is a little less powerful than the game book's write-up of the heart-exploding spell, and that spell is engineered to overcome every possible defense a character could have.

Of course, that's wizards of Harry's level. The newest game book, Paranet Papers, adds a couple powers that can make this even crazier. Mythic Mental Toughness adds 6 stress boxes, so the most now is 38. But at that point, the wizard is all but crippled and a slight breeze will finish him off. One unit higher than that, and they're just plain dead.

Like I said, there are some other wrinkles to the system (that discipline roll, for instance; in order to channel 38 shifts into a spell in one go, you'd have to roll a 38, which is ... unlikely. So, effectively, to cram a spell like that into one shot, a wizard would end up taking two hits bigger than the heart exploding spell. Results are almost certainly not pretty), but that's the best way I can quantify what kind of stress a high-powered wizard can take in channeling energy in one blast.

And that, my friends, is why these guys take their darned time for rituals.