Wizard strength level

[Griffyn612]

2009 Lexington signing:
Q:  What are the upper levels of magic?
A:  There are none, if the person has enough juice.  If someone was strong enough, they could completely rewrite reality.

But would they be mortal?

[jonas]

Also per woj, wizards get better, Not 'stronger' over time. So either you have a whopping gas tank or you don't. It's more akin from going from diesel, to v8, to a v4 to a hybrid. Better efficiency of what you have available.

[dspringer1]

So there are two variables.
1) Source of power -- presumably a wizard could tap with the right ritual/assistance an extremely powerful ley line to get the power equivalent to that of a god, although i doubt any wizard would have that level of power "internally".

2) Effectiveness in utilizing the power - presumably a wizard's skill will determine how efficiently the can control/manage/use that power.   In changes, it was clear that a big power source is more difficult to control, but clearly a very skill wizard can handle a LOT of power. 

I am not arguing against what JB said.  With sufficient power, a wizard can rewrite reality.   Certainly a wizard's careful application of magic in a specific use case could match what (for example) Mab could do.   That is certainly god-like power. 

But recognize the difference.
1) The wizard can match Mab's power with very careful preparation toward a specific end.  Mab can wing it... So Mab's ability to display godlike power in many different ways in a relatively short period of time is an order of magnitude better than any wizard could do.   

2) The wizard is relying on an external power source.  Mab is not.  Presumably Mab could also draw on external sources and thus again exceed the wizard.

3) Mab is fairly weak on the god scale.   Mother Winter is an order of magnitude stronger than Mab and she is maybe average on the god scale.   

4) remaking reality is a vague statement.   Uriel - for example - can destroy galaxies.  I would argue that Uriel can remake reality on a lot larger scale than any wizard could possible manage.   

5) ANY individual can remake reality if they apply just the right force, at just the right time, in just the right place when conditions are in perfect balance.   I suspect that is why mortal will decide the fate of the universe.   The gods and godlike horrors are in balance.   So despite their enormous power relative to all of mortal kind, the mortals are the only beings really free to tip the oh so very carefully balanced scale.   

[jonas]

3 is an opinion bordering on a falsity. We KNOW MW is a multidimensional cosmic powerhouse and considering all of the NN is afraid of her shears, so MW isn't an average on the god scale.

[dspringer1]

3 is an opinion bordering on a falsity. We KNOW MW is a multidimensional cosmic powerhouse and considering all of the NN is afraid of her shears, so MW isn't an average on the god scale.

Sure Mother Winter is a cosmic powerhouse.   But that does not tell us anything about the other gods.  They might also be cosmic powerhouses too.

Evidence:   Many indications in the books
*  Hades refers to Lady/queen/Mother as Hecate - which is a fellow goddess of the Olympian pantheon.  In that panethon,, Hades was considered far more powerful.   And there are many gods and many pantheons.
*  Many references to gods as beings that touch many worlds.  Some very powerful gods might only very lightly (or not at all) touch the Dresden world.  That this the whole point of the Oblivion war - to prevent bad gods from touching our world.   If they barely touch our world, then the effective power they can apply in our world must be a lot smaller.  That does not mean the god or goddess is (overall) weaker. 
*  No evidence at all that Mother Winter is more powerful than major gods - unless you argue that the lords of outer night were gods.  There is clearly evidence of lesser godlike beings like Odin (who accepted growing weaker for more ability to influence the mortal world), lords of outer night, Earlking, etc.  But none of these claimed to be a major god. 

[jonas]

Sure Mother Winter is a cosmic powerhouse.   But that does not tell us anything about the other gods.  They might also be cosmic powerhouses too.

Evidence:   Many indications in the books
*  Hades refers to Lady/queen/Mother as Hecate - which is a fellow goddess of the Olympian pantheon.  In that panethon,, Hades was considered far more powerful.   And there are many gods and many pantheons.
*  Many references to gods as beings that touch many worlds.  Some very powerful gods might only very lightly (or not at all) touch the Dresden world.  That this the whole point of the Oblivion war - to prevent bad gods from touching our world.   If they barely touch our world, then the effective power they can apply in our world must be a lot smaller.  That does not mean the god or goddess is (overall) weaker. 
*  No evidence at all that Mother Winter is more powerful than major gods - unless you argue that the lords of outer night were gods.  There is clearly evidence of lesser godlike beings like Odin (who accepted growing weaker for more ability to influence the mortal world), lords of outer night, Earlking, etc.  But none of these claimed to be a major god.

Besides Hades, which major god have we seen? Hades was, perhaps, greater than Hecate. But MW isn't just Hecate, and she by herself isn't even Hecate. She's also the unmaker, Atropos(a literal fate who had power over other gods in Greek Lore too, including Hades) a fae Mother, ect. ect. Considering Hades has no following and no new masks that we know of i'd tend to give more to MW anyway(and no proof Hades is multidimensional either btw)
*plus one God to compare her to doesn't make her 'middling' by any statistical claim you could create statistical 'lies' with either. Not trying to knock your idea, but your basically supplying her middling power based off of what we don't know, when what we DO know implies something different.

[wardenferry419]

Hades may have been greater once; but, is he still as powerful as in the past?  Mab is very much an active force. Hades seems semi-retired.

[exartiem]

Masks can alter how powerful a being is.  Vadderung as Odin may be more powerful than Kringle.

In the pantheons, all the gods draw from the same source.  How close they are to that source determines how powerful they are.  Zeus is in control of that source, so he is the most powerful, Poseidon and Hades close behind.  Hecate is farther from Zeus, so she has less access to that power source.

In her MW mask, she is far closer to the Winter power source, so she is way more powerful, more like Zeus.  If Hecate went against Hades on his turf she would lose.  If Hades went against MW on her turf, he would lose.

[TheCuriousFan]

I imagine there's an upper limit to how much power a wizard can generate on his own. The upper limit is probably very variable, so Harry probably has a higher upper limit than Molly would have, and it certainly goes up with age, so Harry at 150 can generate a lot more personal power than Harry as he is now.

I think there's probably no upper limit, however, to how much power they can use -- that power just has to come from somewhere else, like leylines, sacrifices, deals and so on. I think you get into reality warping with people who have made such deals or have otherwise found some way to supplement their own power.

Oh, that got confirmed?

[jonas]

Oh, that got confirmed?

Isn't there already a woj to the opposite? can I once more call upon TheCuriousFan for Woj assistance?

[Mr. Death]

Oh, that got confirmed?

I thought it was just common knowledge about how wizards worked.

[jonas]

Now that Harry has used magic in this book without and tailismans, will he be a stronger/more adept wizard with his magic in the next book?”
Harry really hasn’t gotten all that much stronger since the series started. He’s gotten more efficient, more skilled, and smarter, and inasmuch as that makes him more powerful, that will continue. I mean, what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger…
Oh wait.

[TheCuriousFan]

Isn't there already a woj to the opposite? can I once more call upon TheCuriousFan for Woj assistance?

I don't check all threads all the time but sure.

I thought it was just common knowledge about how wizards worked.

It's not confirmed anywhere though, I've looked in the past since I've argued that it's a thing.

[Mr. Death]

That doesn't really answer it. That's talking about Harry from the start of the series to now, only about 10 years. In a wizard's lifetime terms, that's like saying, "Harry at 9 isn't all that much taller than Harry was at 8."

[Griffyn612]

That doesn't really answer it. That's talking about Harry from the start of the series to now, only about 10 years. In a wizard's lifetime terms, that's like saying, "Harry at 9 isn't all that much taller than Harry was at 8."

Likewise, the opposite is like saying Harry was 4' at 8 and 6'9" at 18, so he should have been 12'3" by SG.